deskthority

Posted: **16 Sep 2015, 20:58**

Presumably those apps can do vectors too. They're open source, so they really should include the kitchen sink.

@7bit: Remember to get confirmation screenshots back from SP when doing dodgy SHIF T like that!

Posted: **16 Sep 2015, 20:58**

Muirium wrote: DSA?

Yes. Dolch DSA was always intended to be patient zero. Because that is the only family of keycaps I can inspect and compare myself when I receive the samples.

Posted: **16 Sep 2015, 21:03**

Muirium wrote: Presumably those apps can do vectors too. They're open source, so they really should include the kitchen sink.

ImageMagick isn't an illustration package; it doesn't even have a GUI. It is a format conversion program primarily. GIMP is a raster "paint" program only. A weak substitute for Photoshop.

Posted: **16 Sep 2015, 21:17**

Here is the TeXDraw source code that generates the alien, shown on the previous page:

Code: Select all

\arrowheadtype t:F
\drawdim{mm} 
\setunitscale{1}

\move(0 30) 
\linewd 0.0001
\lvec(0 30)

% size of the figure: 56x64
\linewd 6
\move(34 -2)
\larc r:18 sd:180 ed:360

\move(34 -6)
\larc r:1 sd:0 ed:360

\move(16 -2) 
\lvec(16 7)
\lvec(52 7) 
\lvec(52 -2) 

\move(34 14)
\larc r:9 sd:0 ed:180

\move(25 7)
\lvec(25 14)
\move(43 7)
\lvec(43 14)

% arms:
\move(-6 -31)
\lvec(74 -31)

% body and legs:
\move(34 -23)
\lvec(34 -48)
\lvec(10 -72)
\move(34 -48)
\lvec(58 -72)



% right arrow

\linewd 4
\move(70 -64)
\lvec(70  -6)

\move(66 -59.25)
\lvec(74 -59.25)

\move(66 -50.25)
\lvec(74 -50.25)

\move(66 -41.25)
\lvec(74 -41.25)

% right arrow-head:
\move(74 -10)
\lvec(70   2)
\lvec(66 -10)


% left arrow

\linewd 4
\move(-2 -64)
\lvec(-2   2)

\move(-6 -2.75)
\lvec( 2 -2.75)

\move(-6 -11.75)
\lvec( 2 -11.75)

\move(-6 -20.75)
\lvec( 2 -20.75)

% left arrow-head:
\move( 2 -52)
\lvec(-2 -64)
\lvec(-6 -52)

I generate a PostScript file from it and can convert that into an SVG with Inkscape.

The non-text legends in the mockup graphics are fully automatically generated from the tex source, BTW, converted to eps-graphics.

The path through all the formats is insane, but it works:
tex->dvi->ps->eps->tex->dvi->ps->png

And: It all goes at commandline level, the only reason to use a grphical screen is to see what the result looks like.

For the ai-files: If I can find out how the format works, I can generate it directly.

PS: I still wait for the ai-file. The one I though that is one, isn't.

Posted: **16 Sep 2015, 21:36**

I guess it depends on what you want the file for.

My Illustrator file has layers, with different things on different layers. There is a layer with the outline of the keycap for reference. There is a layer with the outline paths. There is a layer with the center line paths. There is a layer with a bunch of text describing the dimensions of the outline paths. This is how vector art is generally produced, with a GUI and lots of mouse/stylus-driven illustration tools building up the shapes layer upon layer.

If your pipeline can't make sense/use of an Illustrator file (with all its layers and so on), then I need to reduce the content down to something you can make use of. Do you just want the center lines? I could probably export those as an SVG file all by themselves.

Posted: **16 Sep 2015, 21:52**

Send him the final .ai file and see. Just for shits and giggles! With a convoluted maze of a workflow like that, what could possibly go wrong?

Posted: **16 Sep 2015, 22:38**

Ideally, you clean it totally up with just the SHIFT legend left (the center lines), because I'm afraid the task will be difficult enough.

If Melissa wants an AI-file, I need the AI file to see if it is hackable, so I can generate it directly.

Posted: **16 Sep 2015, 23:02**

I'll send you both the .ai file and the center paths isolated in their own .svg file. Best of both worlds.

Posted: **16 Sep 2015, 23:09**

Well, the PM software won't let me attach an .svg file. Go figure.

Posted: **16 Sep 2015, 23:43**

I'm learning a lot in this thread. It's very interesting.

Posted: **17 Sep 2015, 00:26**

These keycaps have a 6-week lead time, so it'll be a while before we have any samples to inspect.

Posted: **17 Sep 2015, 08:13**

I'm not sure the AI-files are any good, but at least it is not cleaned up, so I have no clue at all:

: SHIFT_ai_sample.png (3.84 KiB) Viewed 5647 times

It seems that the actual data is in compressed form, which simply means that it does not work at all.

Posted: **17 Sep 2015, 08:28**

7bit, please don't wikify until I've confirmed with SP. This should happen really soon, though, as part of getting all my ducks in a row to get this font initiative going.

I'm happy to be involved in this as I am already involved in both a fonts discussion and another SA Shift-related issue with SP, but I see you are actually having samples made already, so I'd rather leave the "lead" in your hands. So, once these are done, are you going to address the "AL T", "C TRL" and "ME TA" keys

You could also try saving to PDF and renaming as AI if you want to "convert" a file to import in Illustrator. Or export to EPS and then go from there. I find using EPS seems to be the easiest and most accurate when trying to get SVG's from Inkscape to CAD. I use ps2edit (http://www.pstoedit.net/) with the command line to convert the EPS to DXF which imports to SolidWorks beautifully (and it's more consistent and breaks the files less than any of the "export to DXF" plugins in Inkscape). I believe this is also the workflow used by BigBlueSaw.

ps2edit can do EPS to AI also, but it uses the native Ghostscript script, ps2ai.ps and is not quite as good at converting all images.

Posted: **17 Sep 2015, 08:36**

Honestly, 7bit, if you don't have Illustrator then I suggest throwing away the .ai file. It really isn't much use to you, especially if all you're going to do is rasterize it at some point. I only do that to make .png files for demonstrating concepts in forum posts. I don't ever rasterize a "final product" for anyone. I give them .ai files or .pdf files and they rasterize themselves as needed. Let them deal with issues of dpi; there's no reason for me (or you) to.

As for other legends, I'm not particularly interested in fixing them. The SHIFT legend is the one that I constantly hear harping over so I figured I'd attack that one. The others not so much. If someone wants to pick up where I left off, more power to them.

Posted: **17 Sep 2015, 08:52**

The graphics are not rasterised. However, I've found out that the SVG file format you sent me is different from what I have. I might be able to translate mine into that and maybe Melissa would like the Adobe-style SVG more than the Inkscape style SVG.

Posted: **17 Sep 2015, 19:44**

Just FYI, .ai files are basically in PDF format.

Posted: **20 Sep 2015, 20:40**

I've witten some little script that can generate SVG graphics directly. It makes SVGs that are supposed to be generated by Adolve Ilustrator.
Before I submit it to SP, I need to know if it looks good:

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<!-- Generator: Adobe Illustrator 16.0.0, SVG Export Plug-In . SVG Version: 6.00 Build 0)  -->
<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd">
<svg version="1.1" id="Layer_1" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" x="0px" y="0px"
width="500" height="500" viewBox="0 0 500 500" enable-background="new 0 0 500 500" xml:space="preserve">
<g>
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Posted: **20 Sep 2015, 20:51**

Illustrator reads that SVG code just fine. However, the shape is way too big. I've placed it with a 2.75u shift key and legend at actual size as a point of comparison.

Posted: **20 Sep 2015, 20:59**

zslane wrote: Illustrator reads that SVG code just fine. However, the shape is way too big. I've placed it with a 2.75u shift key and legend at actual size as a point of comparison.

Yes, I know it must be scaled down, but it is 1px=1/1000". The touch surface is about 0.5"x0.5", the graphics size is 500px x 500px.

I don't want to do such legend (direct sum), it is just a test.

SP didn't like my Inkscape SVGs which where converted PS-files. When I send them fake Illustrator-SVGs, they might like them better.

<--- 7bit, being full of hopes.

Posted: **20 Sep 2015, 21:13**

7bit wrote: Yes, I know it must be scaled down, but it is 1px=1/1000". The touch surface is about 0.5"x0.5", the graphics size is 500px x 500px.

Except when using a scanned image as a point of reference, I can't emphasize enough the recommendation to avoid pixels and only work in points or mm/inches. Avoid thinking in terms of how many pixels equals a real-world dimension. I suspect that 99% of problems people have had trying to do this in the past can be directly linked to a misguided use of pixels as a means of representing legend shapes.

Posted: **20 Sep 2015, 21:57**

Erhem!

This is from the SVG file you've sent me:

Code: Select all

<svg version="1.1" id="Layer_1" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" x="0px" y="0px"
         width="612px" height="792px" viewBox="0 0 612 792" enable-background="new 0 0 612 792" xml:space="preserve">

Posted: **20 Sep 2015, 22:42**

That is SVG defining a bounding box for displaying the embedded graphics in a browser (or, presumably anything that can show a preview or thumbnail image). It has nothing to do with the actual graphics elements inside the <svg></svg> block. If you look closely, you will see that every line, polyline, and path element is specified with unitless floating point values. Just as proper bezier curves should be.

Again, I do not work in pixels. And neither should you.

Posted: **20 Sep 2015, 23:34**

Adobe, SVG, Signature Plastics. But whoever is the fourth horseman, I wonder?

Posted: **21 Sep 2015, 00:36**

It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools (hint: Adobe Illustrator and the SVG format are just fine, if you know how to use them.)

I lay the blame squarely at the humans involved. Between a lack of understanding of how to work with vector curves, and a woeful lack of communication between keycap designers and those running the CNC machines at SP, we have a situation where these efforts are compared to the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Somethin's gotta change.

Posted: **21 Sep 2015, 00:58**

That cliche used to make more sense back when all our tools were physical objects. Bad software is a real problem. Adobe is just as good at making Byzantine software as said software spits out Byzantine file formats.

Yet the real problem here is SP. They're practically a mom and pop outfit, with a spotty understanding of their own tools, and — crucially — a stunning absence of taste. They're so used to churning out crap that a duff legend looks just fine to them.

Communication is indeed the key. But the kind of communication we need is a person who cares and understands the desires of the community in exacting detail, to be present on site at SP overseeing their tooling and production process. That's a tall order, and I don't expect it to happen.

Alas, as Matteo's finding out, China is no better than SP. The same problems exist there, just at different scale. Once again, there's nobody present to stop the process and cry out "this is wrong, Wrong, WRONG!" Not unless you send someone there to do just that. Which is exactly what Apple does to get all the crazy little interlocking details they want, with a budget to match.

Posted: **21 Sep 2015, 01:08**

Hmm…

Jesus Christ opens the first four of the seven seals, which summons four beings that ride out on white, red, black, and pale horses.

White, red, black and… grey?

Spoiler:

Posted: **21 Sep 2015, 01:53**

All praise Honey.

Posted: **21 Sep 2015, 02:03**

Muirium wrote: Bad software is a real problem. Adobe is just as good at making Byzantine software as said software spits out Byzantine file formats.

In my experience, a recurring theme is people's unwillingness to learn how to use new software that looks too complicated to them (old dogs, new tricks, yadda yadda). So, instead of learning powerful tools that produce good results, they fall back on sub-par tools that are lacking the necessary features, or just plain wrong for the task at hand. This isn't unique to the keycap design community. I see it plenty of other places where hobbyists expect their computers to produce "commercial quality" output without putting in the time to learn how to actually make that happen.

Posted: **22 Sep 2015, 22:12**

I've submitted my 500x500 SVG graphic and I had been told that it turns out to 6.94"x6.94" when imported in Ilustrator.

I've scaled down everything, so hopefully it will work out!

For sure, the alternative would have been to scale at import by 1:1000,
instead they use a scale factor of 13.88:1000, or 1:72.04610951008645533141

Posted: **23 Sep 2015, 00:19**

7bit wrote: I've submitted my 500x500 SVG graphic and I had been told that it turns out to 6.94"x6.94" when imported in Ilustrator.

Yes, exactly as I showed above. This should not come as a surprise to anyone.

7bit wrote: I've scaled down everything, so hopefully it will work out!

I hope it works out for you too. But these scaling issues should never be a mystery to anyone. If done properly, the math is really really easy, and the proper scale is trivial to get right, at least on your end.

7bit wrote: For sure, the alternative would have been to scale at import by 1:1000,
instead they use a scale factor of 13.88:1000, or 1:72.04610951008645533141

I confess I don't understand any of the above statement. The vector paths I gave SP require no scaling by anyone. The only thing I left to their judgment was the width of the cutter, which I told them to match to their existing Gorton Modified legend width. I think leaving as little to chance and (mis-)interpretation as possible is the key here.

deskthority

Fixing Signature Plastics SHIFT key legends digitally