F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
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- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: Brand New Model F Keyboards
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Nice customizations genericusername57! I have noted to send a free replacement key with your Round 2 beam spring order even though you were able to repair the key yourself. It's quite rare for a key to break when doing a little squeezing as part of the wiggle method.
- wobbled
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: HHKB PD-KB300 Pro 1
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 3
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0192
Phew just be glad these are $1 replacement parts that doesn’t hurt Joe too much to lose.
If you had case damage from shipping you’d be fucked, but i suppose you can always fix it yourself with a paint pen!

If you had case damage from shipping you’d be fucked, but i suppose you can always fix it yourself with a paint pen!


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- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: Model F XT
- Main mouse: Marble mouse
- Favorite switch: buckling spring
I think the incessant, mean-spirited attacks on ellipse are tedious. To his credit, Joe tends to ignore this stuff, but I think something more should be said in his defense. It is presumptuous to attribute to greed what may in fact be explained by simple economics. How exactly is traditional customer support (which mostly no longer exists elsewhere) supposed to be offered without a large increase in the cost of the final product? Furthermore, what evidence is there to support the claim that ellipse is making some huge, unwarranted profit? IBM stopped manufacturing the Model F in the 1980s and since then, no other company with the exception of Model F Labs has has this kind of success recreating the model F. If there were an extreme profit to be made I assume someone else would already be providing all of what you accuse Joe of withholding.
What Joe has "given back to the community" is a very cool product which was no longer being manufactured before he did the work to make it happen again. I don't believe he has filed any patents, so nothing prevents you from entering the same space, offering a better product -- with superior customer support -- at a lower price. Have at it.
That Joe figured out a way to leverage community resources and overseas manufacturing to actually get these keyboards manufactured strikes me as clever and inventive, rather than a nefarious plot to rip off the community.
What Joe has "given back to the community" is a very cool product which was no longer being manufactured before he did the work to make it happen again. I don't believe he has filed any patents, so nothing prevents you from entering the same space, offering a better product -- with superior customer support -- at a lower price. Have at it.
That Joe figured out a way to leverage community resources and overseas manufacturing to actually get these keyboards manufactured strikes me as clever and inventive, rather than a nefarious plot to rip off the community.
- wobbled
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: HHKB PD-KB300 Pro 1
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 3
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0192
I don't usually reply to individuals that have only posted 5 times here as I just assume them to be alt accounts / bots but I'll bite.
These aren't mean-spirited attacks on ellipse, we're not on the primary school playground here. I'm foolishly trying to make him see that his business practices are scummy and actually illegal in some countries.
Let me tell you what greed is.
-It's refusing to honour replacement cases to those when theirs arrives physically damaged.
- Or maybe it's taking specifications, and information on Model F components from the community and ignoring folks like iDollar when they ask ellipse to give back and return the support only to have the fkn nerve to still ignore the request and ask DMA for more info on something that could help his issues with model f springs.
-It's listing a NIB Model M SSK for $4000 when even the ebay chancers will ask for 1k
-It's recycling the 'HAVE YOUR ORDERS IN BY X' shite on his website for YEARS to create a false sense of urgency, which is scummy marketing at the least, or completely illegal in some countries at the most.
- It's asking people on deskthority to send him money so he can buy deskthority for HIMSELF
- It's relying on deskthority for his support network for his business so he doesn't have to fund it himself.
- it's suddenly being able to shave off nearly half a products cost just to increase sales showing just how much he's profiting from this
I'd like to believe Joe did this at first at least partially for the community, but this was all about financial gain from him. He's known to care far too much about lining his own pockets.
To address your 'why don't you do it yourself' line of bollocks.
There are people in workshops on this forum trying to reproduce components for this, when asking for specs from ellipse, they are ignored, even though ellipse received nothing but support from this community when first starting this project.
Your last point is totally accurate though, it's always crazy clever and inventive to tell the Chinese what you want using information given to you for free by others, and have them crack the whip at their factory slaves to make it happen on your behalf. Brilliant.
These aren't mean-spirited attacks on ellipse, we're not on the primary school playground here. I'm foolishly trying to make him see that his business practices are scummy and actually illegal in some countries.
Let me tell you what greed is.
-It's refusing to honour replacement cases to those when theirs arrives physically damaged.
- Or maybe it's taking specifications, and information on Model F components from the community and ignoring folks like iDollar when they ask ellipse to give back and return the support only to have the fkn nerve to still ignore the request and ask DMA for more info on something that could help his issues with model f springs.
-It's listing a NIB Model M SSK for $4000 when even the ebay chancers will ask for 1k
-It's recycling the 'HAVE YOUR ORDERS IN BY X' shite on his website for YEARS to create a false sense of urgency, which is scummy marketing at the least, or completely illegal in some countries at the most.
- It's asking people on deskthority to send him money so he can buy deskthority for HIMSELF
- It's relying on deskthority for his support network for his business so he doesn't have to fund it himself.
- it's suddenly being able to shave off nearly half a products cost just to increase sales showing just how much he's profiting from this
I'd like to believe Joe did this at first at least partially for the community, but this was all about financial gain from him. He's known to care far too much about lining his own pockets.
To address your 'why don't you do it yourself' line of bollocks.
There are people in workshops on this forum trying to reproduce components for this, when asking for specs from ellipse, they are ignored, even though ellipse received nothing but support from this community when first starting this project.
Your last point is totally accurate though, it's always crazy clever and inventive to tell the Chinese what you want using information given to you for free by others, and have them crack the whip at their factory slaves to make it happen on your behalf. Brilliant.
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- Location: Sweden
- Main keyboard: Ellipse F62
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 3S
- Favorite switch: Buckling springs or clicky alps
Seems like you have a whole bunch of people getting fucked over by Ellipse to share the same information they gave to him, to hand over to a chinese factory to undercut his business with good practices. Seems very easy when you lay it out like that. I can't believe no one has done it yet, given how much money there is to earn.wobbled wrote: 28 Dec 2024, 00:49Your last point is totally accurate though, it's always crazy clever and inventive to tell the Chinese what you want using information given to you for free by others, and have them crack the whip at their factory slaves to make it happen on your behalf. Brilliant.
EDIT: I do agree about the deadline counter on the webpage though but that horse has been beaten so far into the soil that I'm not sure it's even visible. A simple edit of making the counter reset three months into the future rather than one would solve any issue with it.
The only issues that Ive seen that are notable are:
- Not replacing parts that are physically damaged and just telling the customer to use a PAINT PEN. That's just insane to me. This product is $400+ and we're told to use a paint pen on a part that arrived to us damaged.
- Not including enough keycaps to fill the B122 keyboard in the keycap set you have to PAY extra for. And the solution he comes up with for me is to buy relegendable key caps off the website that do not match the SA profile caps he sells for the beamspring boards on the website. The missing keys are also coincidentally keycaps that are nearly impossible to find online in any profile, let alone SA profile and a matching color. He could've found and worked with a manufacturer that could have made a key cap set that included all the necessary keycaps to fill a product that he sells for nearly $800.
That being said, I'm still pretty excited to get the B122 in. Luckily I found a solution for the keycap problem, but I still think it's unacceptable to not provide keycaps to fill the keyboard that you sell, especially when they're as hard to find as F13-F24 and M1-M10.
- Not replacing parts that are physically damaged and just telling the customer to use a PAINT PEN. That's just insane to me. This product is $400+ and we're told to use a paint pen on a part that arrived to us damaged.
- Not including enough keycaps to fill the B122 keyboard in the keycap set you have to PAY extra for. And the solution he comes up with for me is to buy relegendable key caps off the website that do not match the SA profile caps he sells for the beamspring boards on the website. The missing keys are also coincidentally keycaps that are nearly impossible to find online in any profile, let alone SA profile and a matching color. He could've found and worked with a manufacturer that could have made a key cap set that included all the necessary keycaps to fill a product that he sells for nearly $800.
That being said, I'm still pretty excited to get the B122 in. Luckily I found a solution for the keycap problem, but I still think it's unacceptable to not provide keycaps to fill the keyboard that you sell, especially when they're as hard to find as F13-F24 and M1-M10.
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- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: Brand New Model F Keyboards
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
History of the IBM PC and IBM PS/2
The IBM PC turned 43 years old this year! Here is a nice article from Techspot posted recently:
https://www.techspot.com/article/2914-legends-ibm-pc/
IBM's innovations are fascinating. The article notes that they sold 750,000 PC's in the first two years - that is a lot of Model F keyboards!
Does anyone have documentation on the original IBM PC 5150 (XT style) keyboard pricing? Not for the 5150 clone boards.
The F122 originally sold for $295 in 1984, or $895 in today's dollars per the IBM announcement notice: https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/announcemen ... NUS184-040
Regarding the above post, again it is another post that is not entirely accurate. Physically damaged parts are replaced for free, with only one exception: cosmetic damage of the cases. Please read the earlier posts before repeating wrong information.
Regarding the B122, you can use another MX key set if you are not happy with using relegendables or a mix-and match approach. The vast majority of B122 folks just buy the set and the relegendables for now since they are not too dear, and they can pick up other sets later if they change their mind. I was not able to find a factory for custom scooped/sunken relegendables so we just have to make do with what is available. The factory told me the cost to add keys to the existing PBT double shot set would add so much cost as it would exceed the size of the B122 project, so it is not feasible. There is no "working" with a manufacturer to make molds for only a couple hundred key sets - I would have to pay for the molds which would cost more than a luxury car and there is just no budget for that with the B122.
Yes, everyone is well aware of the same couple points being repeated by the same few folks many times for years. The main point to emphasize is that these points have already fully been disclosed on the product page, so it is no surprise to anyone looking to buy. Anyone who reads the product page is aware. If it is not a surprise and everyone is made aware of the policy right on the keyboard product page they are buying from, then these attacks are just wasted time typing on a keyboard. In effect, painted parts are "B Stock" and have the potential for cosmetic damage, and this potential is noted right on the product order page for everyone to see. The project does not, nor never has, offered any other cosmetic guarantees.
Well said daneli! You have explained things better than I have!
If someone expects a guaranteed perfect finish, they can read the product description before purchasing so that they're aware their expectation is not what is being offered. Again, from the reports I have seen almost all cases retain a good powdercoating finish, but all cases have die casting defects. These products never had a perfect finish. Almost all Model F keyboards had plastic cases and so did not have to worry about paint loss as much. The metal case IBM Model F boards all have an imperfect finish because of the type of unprotected, matte powdercoating finish used on the originals. I refuse to switch the cases to plastic to reduce quality for everyone and reduce the number of complaints of paint chips from a few per year to 0, and I will not change the original project philosophy that if it is something you can do, then you are in control of the maintenance for now and the coming decades; this includes using a key puller, tweezers, and rarely a sample can of paint. If you don't have that attitude and think that a paint chip makes the product a poor value, then you don't have to buy it, but you can't buy it on your terms expecting a fully assembled, cosmetic defect-free keyboard - such a product is not sold here and it is disclosed as such on the product page.
Again, hundreds of keyboards have been mailed out this year and a few folks are getting upset with one person's report of a few mm of lost paint. This is not a pandemic issue. If it was, we would be seeing dozens and dozens of posts from those who ordered a keyboard, but we don't see this.
In summary, the tiny fraction of unhappy folks are far louder than the rest of the folks who are happy and more often than not do not share their feedback, though I have encouraged sharing. This is obvious to everyone reading the forums that you should look at the bad comments and see that they are mostly just hearsay, not issues that they personally had with their keyboard but just anonymous reports from folks they don't know and they repeat and exaggerate these claims in a way that makes them falsified. I have responded to these various claims on the forums so you can see my reply before evaluating things. Most folks don't make their decisions with hearsay but instead with feedback and reviews directly posted by product users. Those new to the hobby may find things overwhelming at first but just reading and watching the manual is the best way to quickly get up to speed and learn everything there is to know about these great old style keyboards. For example, just look through the Chyrosran22 F104 video's couple hundred comments and see how many are positive vs. negative.
The IBM PC turned 43 years old this year! Here is a nice article from Techspot posted recently:
https://www.techspot.com/article/2914-legends-ibm-pc/
IBM's innovations are fascinating. The article notes that they sold 750,000 PC's in the first two years - that is a lot of Model F keyboards!
Does anyone have documentation on the original IBM PC 5150 (XT style) keyboard pricing? Not for the 5150 clone boards.
The F122 originally sold for $295 in 1984, or $895 in today's dollars per the IBM announcement notice: https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/announcemen ... NUS184-040
Regarding the above post, again it is another post that is not entirely accurate. Physically damaged parts are replaced for free, with only one exception: cosmetic damage of the cases. Please read the earlier posts before repeating wrong information.
Regarding the B122, you can use another MX key set if you are not happy with using relegendables or a mix-and match approach. The vast majority of B122 folks just buy the set and the relegendables for now since they are not too dear, and they can pick up other sets later if they change their mind. I was not able to find a factory for custom scooped/sunken relegendables so we just have to make do with what is available. The factory told me the cost to add keys to the existing PBT double shot set would add so much cost as it would exceed the size of the B122 project, so it is not feasible. There is no "working" with a manufacturer to make molds for only a couple hundred key sets - I would have to pay for the molds which would cost more than a luxury car and there is just no budget for that with the B122.
Yes, everyone is well aware of the same couple points being repeated by the same few folks many times for years. The main point to emphasize is that these points have already fully been disclosed on the product page, so it is no surprise to anyone looking to buy. Anyone who reads the product page is aware. If it is not a surprise and everyone is made aware of the policy right on the keyboard product page they are buying from, then these attacks are just wasted time typing on a keyboard. In effect, painted parts are "B Stock" and have the potential for cosmetic damage, and this potential is noted right on the product order page for everyone to see. The project does not, nor never has, offered any other cosmetic guarantees.
Well said daneli! You have explained things better than I have!
daneli, the forum has an ignore feature that I have used for years to skip over most of these comments, as do most folks when they see "oh it's XYZ user making the post" and they skip it. And yes, demanding dozens of times for years that someone do whatever you say is plainly bullying, no matter how justified and righteous they think they are. They are moralizing, plain and simple - "having or displaying an overly critical point of view on issues of right and wrong, typically with an unfounded air of superiority." You can't change anonymous internet people who write in a threatening way; you can only ignore them and carry on. They have nothing to say except insults and repeated phrases like some early-stage chat bot. I can almost guarantee their reply to this post would be some insult and a repetition of something they said a dozen times before, which everyone who has them on the ignore list won't even see in the first place. There's nothing new on offer. There is no benefit for these users to keep repeating the same words; it just scares away the contributions of other community members afraid of being bullied for saying something that the loudest voices may disagree with.daneli wrote: 28 Dec 2024, 00:29 I think the incessant, mean-spirited attacks on ellipse are tedious. To his credit, Joe tends to ignore this stuff, but I think something more should be said in his defense. It is presumptuous to attribute to greed what may in fact be explained by simple economics. How exactly is traditional customer support (which mostly no longer exists elsewhere) supposed to be offered without a large increase in the cost of the final product? Furthermore, what evidence is there to support the claim that ellipse is making some huge, unwarranted profit? IBM stopped manufacturing the Model F in the 1980s and since then, no other company with the exception of Model F Labs has has this kind of success recreating the model F. If there were an extreme profit to be made I assume someone else would already be providing all of what you accuse Joe of withholding.
What Joe has "given back to the community" is a very cool product which was no longer being manufactured before he did the work to make it happen again. I don't believe he has filed any patents, so nothing prevents you from entering the same space, offering a better product -- with superior customer support -- at a lower price. Have at it.
That Joe figured out a way to leverage community resources and overseas manufacturing to actually get these keyboards manufactured strikes me as clever and inventive, rather than a nefarious plot to rip off the community.
If someone expects a guaranteed perfect finish, they can read the product description before purchasing so that they're aware their expectation is not what is being offered. Again, from the reports I have seen almost all cases retain a good powdercoating finish, but all cases have die casting defects. These products never had a perfect finish. Almost all Model F keyboards had plastic cases and so did not have to worry about paint loss as much. The metal case IBM Model F boards all have an imperfect finish because of the type of unprotected, matte powdercoating finish used on the originals. I refuse to switch the cases to plastic to reduce quality for everyone and reduce the number of complaints of paint chips from a few per year to 0, and I will not change the original project philosophy that if it is something you can do, then you are in control of the maintenance for now and the coming decades; this includes using a key puller, tweezers, and rarely a sample can of paint. If you don't have that attitude and think that a paint chip makes the product a poor value, then you don't have to buy it, but you can't buy it on your terms expecting a fully assembled, cosmetic defect-free keyboard - such a product is not sold here and it is disclosed as such on the product page.
Again, hundreds of keyboards have been mailed out this year and a few folks are getting upset with one person's report of a few mm of lost paint. This is not a pandemic issue. If it was, we would be seeing dozens and dozens of posts from those who ordered a keyboard, but we don't see this.
In summary, the tiny fraction of unhappy folks are far louder than the rest of the folks who are happy and more often than not do not share their feedback, though I have encouraged sharing. This is obvious to everyone reading the forums that you should look at the bad comments and see that they are mostly just hearsay, not issues that they personally had with their keyboard but just anonymous reports from folks they don't know and they repeat and exaggerate these claims in a way that makes them falsified. I have responded to these various claims on the forums so you can see my reply before evaluating things. Most folks don't make their decisions with hearsay but instead with feedback and reviews directly posted by product users. Those new to the hobby may find things overwhelming at first but just reading and watching the manual is the best way to quickly get up to speed and learn everything there is to know about these great old style keyboards. For example, just look through the Chyrosran22 F104 video's couple hundred comments and see how many are positive vs. negative.
I would reply to the whole keycap mold response by saying that just because doubleshots are an option does not mean you have to use them. You can easily just go with dye-sub PBT if that means that the keycap set for your own product is complete. It's effectively just as durable, nobody will wear through dye sub PBT in the keycap's lifetime, and it's much much cheaper. Reverse dye-sub is a thing now, too, so you don't even have to worry about white on black legends. In my mind there simply isn't an excuse for a keyboard not coming with all the keycaps needed, especially at the price this keyboard costs.
Yes, I could go out and find a key cap set of my own (and I have out of necessity) but why should I have to when I'm paying the kind of money I am for this keyboard already? And that's not even counting the fact that it's currently impossible to find any keycap sets with the missing keycaps I need to fill the board in the same profile, like I stated in my initial post. Believe me, I searched around for weeks.
Yes, I could go out and find a key cap set of my own (and I have out of necessity) but why should I have to when I'm paying the kind of money I am for this keyboard already? And that's not even counting the fact that it's currently impossible to find any keycap sets with the missing keycaps I need to fill the board in the same profile, like I stated in my initial post. Believe me, I searched around for weeks.
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Ellipse,wobbled wrote: 22 Dec 2024, 15:03 Ellipse you gonna give back to the community and help share details in this thread?
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=29392&p=521792#p521792
...
We are still waiting for an answer to the above ... let me repeat the question in clear here for all to be aware:
Elipse: (Give and take) why don't you please share the information you hold (CAD, springs specs/source and how to purchase from China) with the community to help in producing the flippers in the same way the community has done with the critical components you have (and still are) using in your products ?
Your business would not be possible without these contributions which required tons of hours which I believe you have not funded in any way. Does the DT spirit of taking (for free) and giving (in the same way) does not applies in this project ?
There is no need to thank me for any contribution which I do to the community.Ellipse wrote: 17 Dec 2024, 08:31 Thanks idollar for your help with the Diagnostic Tool! I find linux/unix to be difficult, having used Windows for decades.
Instead, do something so we can thank you back ...
- wobbled
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: HHKB PD-KB300 Pro 1
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 3
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0192
Ellipse you address literally one point regarding your refund / replacement policies on cosmetic damages and act as if the ignore feature is your last resort.
How about addressing everything and stop hiding behind walls of bullshit? Idollar still has no answer from you, yet you have replied in his thread asking him for further help which just highlights how tone deaf and downright selfish you are sometimes.
Personally i’d like you to address any of the following which I will repeat for you.
- taking specifications, and information on Model F components from the community and ignoring folks like iDollar when they ask ellipse to give back and return the support only to have the fkn nerve to still ignore the request and ask DMA for more info on something that could help his issues with model f springs.
-It's listing a NIB Model M SSK for $4000 when even the ebay chancers will ask for 1k
-It's recycling the 'HAVE YOUR ORDERS IN BY X' shite on his website for YEARS to create a false sense of urgency, which is scummy marketing at the least, or completely illegal in some countries at the most.
- It's asking people on deskthority to send him money so he can buy deskthority for HIMSELF
- It's relying on deskthority for his support network for his business so he doesn't have to fund it himself.
- it's suddenly being able to shave off nearly half a products cost just to increase sales showing just how much he's profiting from this
You can’t always run away from things when you’re a business owner. Take accountability for your questionable practices.
And this is all without talking about the most obvious point of all - plenty of people received boards with clear shipping damage, or a board that would’ve received better QC from an ape.
In summary for future buyers, buy at your own risk and pray you don’t need an expensive replacement cos it aint happening
Also if the following happened on any of the IBM boards then they would be bare metal after 40 years. What a joke. I remember my good friend was going to buy one of these boards from another dt member a few years back, the board was packed away while he was on his holidays and the powdercoat was practically falling off on his return. Again, a joke
How about addressing everything and stop hiding behind walls of bullshit? Idollar still has no answer from you, yet you have replied in his thread asking him for further help which just highlights how tone deaf and downright selfish you are sometimes.
Personally i’d like you to address any of the following which I will repeat for you.
- taking specifications, and information on Model F components from the community and ignoring folks like iDollar when they ask ellipse to give back and return the support only to have the fkn nerve to still ignore the request and ask DMA for more info on something that could help his issues with model f springs.
-It's listing a NIB Model M SSK for $4000 when even the ebay chancers will ask for 1k
-It's recycling the 'HAVE YOUR ORDERS IN BY X' shite on his website for YEARS to create a false sense of urgency, which is scummy marketing at the least, or completely illegal in some countries at the most.
- It's asking people on deskthority to send him money so he can buy deskthority for HIMSELF
- It's relying on deskthority for his support network for his business so he doesn't have to fund it himself.
- it's suddenly being able to shave off nearly half a products cost just to increase sales showing just how much he's profiting from this
You can’t always run away from things when you’re a business owner. Take accountability for your questionable practices.
And this is all without talking about the most obvious point of all - plenty of people received boards with clear shipping damage, or a board that would’ve received better QC from an ape.
In summary for future buyers, buy at your own risk and pray you don’t need an expensive replacement cos it aint happening
Also if the following happened on any of the IBM boards then they would be bare metal after 40 years. What a joke. I remember my good friend was going to buy one of these boards from another dt member a few years back, the board was packed away while he was on his holidays and the powdercoat was practically falling off on his return. Again, a joke
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- Location: Germany
The FSSK space bar is not aligned with the case and the key row above due to one tab (right one from the user's perspective) being offset by about one mm towards the '.' key.
This causes the space bar to move out of the way once the '.' key gets pressed because the space bar's stabiliser wire makes room for the '.' key. In addition, the space bar sometimes jams.
I have read the section E1 of the manual's section 1 pertaining the space bar.
I do not dare to bend the space bar's stabiliser wire that much because the problem is the right tab's offset underneath the '.' key. I would need the wire to be further away from the back of the tab. I hope you get what I mean by looking at the photo attached.
How would you fix that?
This causes the space bar to move out of the way once the '.' key gets pressed because the space bar's stabiliser wire makes room for the '.' key. In addition, the space bar sometimes jams.
I have read the section E1 of the manual's section 1 pertaining the space bar.
I do not dare to bend the space bar's stabiliser wire that much because the problem is the right tab's offset underneath the '.' key. I would need the wire to be further away from the back of the tab. I hope you get what I mean by looking at the photo attached.
How would you fix that?
- Attachments
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- IMG_8221.JPG (3.71 MiB) Viewed 6077 times
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- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F122
Hey ellipse,
I know it is difficult, but sometimes it is better to just ignore negative people and trolls.
Keep up the great work.
I am looking forward to my B122.
I know it is difficult, but sometimes it is better to just ignore negative people and trolls.
Keep up the great work.
I am looking forward to my B122.

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- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: Brand New Model F Keyboards
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Hi Irving - did you see the note in the manual about maybe adding some foam or cardboard or other material inside the metal spacebar tab, between the back end of the tab and the stabilizer wire? The more forward the wire is, the less likely other keys in the above row are to make slight contact when pressed all the way down. This was done to allow the key sets to be Model M compatible. The original Model F keyboards used a thinner wire which would not make contact.
Not needed for the above request but it reminds me of a great mod posted 10 years ago that involves using heat shrink tubing to use a Model M spacebar in a Model F keyboard with its thinner stabilizer wire since Model F spare spacebars are not easy to find. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA8IpiIgwxo
Thanks AngryCockroach! Yes I am looking forward to the B122, B104, and F122 especially! These will be the first boards to use the new Leyden Jar controller made by forum member Rico.
nac5605 the issue with your suggestion is that the minimum order quantity is so high for custom stuff these days. They are not in stock and they refused to make anything less than the minimum order quantity. I can't buy 1,000 sets when maybe a hundred or two hundred folks will want this other set. And buying a retailer's stocked set in bulk would mean I'd have to spend a lot more on each set which would make these keyboards even more costly. Plus even the IBM original beam spring keyboards had transparent relegendable keys that were flat, combined with the scooped keys (example: IBM 4978) so my choice was perfectly in line with the IBM originals. Chyros's video on the 4978 can be found here: viewtopic.php?t=24317
Not needed for the above request but it reminds me of a great mod posted 10 years ago that involves using heat shrink tubing to use a Model M spacebar in a Model F keyboard with its thinner stabilizer wire since Model F spare spacebars are not easy to find. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA8IpiIgwxo
Thanks AngryCockroach! Yes I am looking forward to the B122, B104, and F122 especially! These will be the first boards to use the new Leyden Jar controller made by forum member Rico.
nac5605 the issue with your suggestion is that the minimum order quantity is so high for custom stuff these days. They are not in stock and they refused to make anything less than the minimum order quantity. I can't buy 1,000 sets when maybe a hundred or two hundred folks will want this other set. And buying a retailer's stocked set in bulk would mean I'd have to spend a lot more on each set which would make these keyboards even more costly. Plus even the IBM original beam spring keyboards had transparent relegendable keys that were flat, combined with the scooped keys (example: IBM 4978) so my choice was perfectly in line with the IBM originals. Chyros's video on the 4978 can be found here: viewtopic.php?t=24317
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Hi Ellipse,
you have forgotten the answer to my question:
Elipse: (Give and take) why don't you please share the information you hold (CAD, springs specs/source and how to purchase from China) with the community to help in producing the flippers in the same way the community has done with the critical components you have (and still are) using in your products ?
Your business would not be possible without these contributions which required tons of hours which I believe you have not funded in any way. Does the DT spirit of taking (for free) and giving (in the same way) does not applies in this project ?
Instead, do something so we can thank you back ...
you have forgotten the answer to my question:
Elipse: (Give and take) why don't you please share the information you hold (CAD, springs specs/source and how to purchase from China) with the community to help in producing the flippers in the same way the community has done with the critical components you have (and still are) using in your products ?
Your business would not be possible without these contributions which required tons of hours which I believe you have not funded in any way. Does the DT spirit of taking (for free) and giving (in the same way) does not applies in this project ?
There is no need to thank me for any contribution which I do to the community.Ellipse wrote: 17 Dec 2024, 08:31 Thanks idollar for your help with the Diagnostic Tool! I find linux/unix to be difficult, having used Windows for decades.
Instead, do something so we can thank you back ...
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
(Give and take) Ellipse, hello again,
Just to clarify... note my emphasis on "the same way".
The question does not ask for any additional effort, but rather a fair return.
The same way you started and still use (actually SELL) the free xwhatsit, free XTANT from wcass and his PCB, free DMA "commonSense", free idollar's FSSK and FEXT, free QMK/Vial, free port from Pandrew, free Rico's Leyden Jar,and so many other members that for sure I am missing in the list.
You said "10 years ago" ... at this time, DT was about this give and take. People sharing information and experiences.
My question is related to the sharing. Free as Richard Stallman and the FSF defines their GNU license. The same license that you have based your products.
Note also that the question starts with "why" ... ideally I would like to read the demanded information, but a valid answer is "because I do not believe in fairness"
Here is the question once more ... I guess is the 5th time I am posting it. Be brave and answer it before it is posted again
:
Elipse: (Give and take) why don't you please share the information you hold (CAD, springs specs/source and how to purchase from China) with the community to help in producing the flippers in the same way the community has done with the critical components you have (and still are) using in your products ?
Just to clarify... note my emphasis on "the same way".
The question does not ask for any additional effort, but rather a fair return.
The same way you started and still use (actually SELL) the free xwhatsit, free XTANT from wcass and his PCB, free DMA "commonSense", free idollar's FSSK and FEXT, free QMK/Vial, free port from Pandrew, free Rico's Leyden Jar,and so many other members that for sure I am missing in the list.
You said "10 years ago" ... at this time, DT was about this give and take. People sharing information and experiences.
My question is related to the sharing. Free as Richard Stallman and the FSF defines their GNU license. The same license that you have based your products.
Note also that the question starts with "why" ... ideally I would like to read the demanded information, but a valid answer is "because I do not believe in fairness"

Here is the question once more ... I guess is the 5th time I am posting it. Be brave and answer it before it is posted again

Elipse: (Give and take) why don't you please share the information you hold (CAD, springs specs/source and how to purchase from China) with the community to help in producing the flippers in the same way the community has done with the critical components you have (and still are) using in your products ?
-
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: Brand New Model F Keyboards
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Major project milestones:
This month the 6,000th keyboard shipped! Six thousand! This includes both Brand New Model F and Brand New Beam Spring keyboards.
Also all Model M case style F104 and FSSK keyboards have shipped as of now, for orders through last month (end of November). Now I will move on to the remaining backlog of those boards as well as orders of the other keyboard models in stock.
For orders submitted before this month (not counting recent non-Model M style keyboard orders from the past few months), please feel free to email me if you are still waiting on anything besides the keyboards not yet in stock (F122 and Round 2 beam spring keyboards).
This month the 6,000th keyboard shipped! Six thousand! This includes both Brand New Model F and Brand New Beam Spring keyboards.
Also all Model M case style F104 and FSSK keyboards have shipped as of now, for orders through last month (end of November). Now I will move on to the remaining backlog of those boards as well as orders of the other keyboard models in stock.
For orders submitted before this month (not counting recent non-Model M style keyboard orders from the past few months), please feel free to email me if you are still waiting on anything besides the keyboards not yet in stock (F122 and Round 2 beam spring keyboards).
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Dear DT,
We already have an answer from Ellipse in the form of a Private Message ...
[attachment deleted by mod]
I am sorry if Ellipse felt harassed. It was not my intention. I do not think I have ever harassed anyone, but just in case I publicly apologise in case someone believes I did. As I said, it has never been my intention.
I just wanted to progress on a personal project and in DT people is common to ask for help. The point is that I want to built on top of the knowledge shared in DT, as we have always done. Ellipse has the knowledge and being an active DT member, I thought that he could help.
Now we know the answer: Ellipse is not going to share information. He will keep on asking for information (take) but he does not intends to give back.
An example of this attitude can be found in a recent post (https://www.deskthority.net/viewtopic.p ... 21#p521821)
The above was posted in the thread in which I asked for his help. Yes, he would only write to take.
So this time I am not addressing you, Ellipse. I address all other DT members with my question:
Do you share my view ?
I mean are you fine with the way the forum has evolved by one single member ?
Are you find with a forum in which members take information, use the forum as their marketing and service platform without giving back in the same way that they have taken ?
I definitively don't agree with this approach.
I personally feel unfair to use DT to take information and work from others and give nothing.
Let's make it clear: I have no problem with the profit of 6000 keyboards. That's perfectly fine with me.
My point is and has always been sharing information and misusing (in my opinion) DT.
-- PD : I am sure that a long post will follow hiding this behind
We already have an answer from Ellipse in the form of a Private Message ...
[attachment deleted by mod]
I am sorry if Ellipse felt harassed. It was not my intention. I do not think I have ever harassed anyone, but just in case I publicly apologise in case someone believes I did. As I said, it has never been my intention.
I just wanted to progress on a personal project and in DT people is common to ask for help. The point is that I want to built on top of the knowledge shared in DT, as we have always done. Ellipse has the knowledge and being an active DT member, I thought that he could help.
Now we know the answer: Ellipse is not going to share information. He will keep on asking for information (take) but he does not intends to give back.
An example of this attitude can be found in a recent post (https://www.deskthority.net/viewtopic.p ... 21#p521821)
The above was posted in the thread in which I asked for his help. Yes, he would only write to take.
So this time I am not addressing you, Ellipse. I address all other DT members with my question:
Do you share my view ?
I mean are you fine with the way the forum has evolved by one single member ?
Are you find with a forum in which members take information, use the forum as their marketing and service platform without giving back in the same way that they have taken ?
I definitively don't agree with this approach.
I personally feel unfair to use DT to take information and work from others and give nothing.
Let's make it clear: I have no problem with the profit of 6000 keyboards. That's perfectly fine with me.
My point is and has always been sharing information and misusing (in my opinion) DT.
-- PD : I am sure that a long post will follow hiding this behind

-
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F122
Giving back to the community by making new Model Fs and Beam Springs available is enough for me.
- wobbled
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: HHKB PD-KB300 Pro 1
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 3
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0192
Go kiss ass somewhere elseAngryCockroach wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 19:35 Giving back to the community by making new Model Fs and Beam Springs available is enough for me.
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
--- Background begin --------------------------------------------------
--- Background end --------------------------------------------------
But you should be aware that these keyboards would not be available in case that all DT members would act in the same way.
I personally believe that this is against DT philosophy.
It may also be that DT is not longer what it used to be ... I can see that you joined in 2022. I joined in 2014.
Question: have you ever gone through the following ? These examples (they are just some examples) may help to better understand why I consider this new (already old) attitude unfair, leading to DT self-destruction:
You see ... we all build on the information from others ... actually, it seems that it is not all of us:
[attachment deleted by mod]
Spoiler:
Understood.AngryCockroach wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 19:35 Giving back to the community by making new Model Fs and Beam Springs available is enough for me.
But you should be aware that these keyboards would not be available in case that all DT members would act in the same way.
I personally believe that this is against DT philosophy.
It may also be that DT is not longer what it used to be ... I can see that you joined in 2022. I joined in 2014.
Question: have you ever gone through the following ? These examples (they are just some examples) may help to better understand why I consider this new (already old) attitude unfair, leading to DT self-destruction:
- https://www.deskthority.net/viewtopic.p ... ommonsense --- DMA's section theory of operation is very interesting - sharing information
- https://www.deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28012 --- wcass had an idea (Xtant). I had an idea on top. I shared it. DMA improves it. wcass (XTant) comments it . Great stuff.
- https://www.keebtalk.com/t/the-leyden-j ... ards/17489 --- Rico evolves the xwhatsit controller. He posts in a different forum. Shares it in Github. It arrives to DT.
You see ... we all build on the information from others ... actually, it seems that it is not all of us:
[attachment deleted by mod]
-
- Location: Canada
- DT Pro Member: -
There is technically nothing wrong with Ellipse's actions from a legal standpoint. He is within his full right to treat this knowledge as trade secret. However, this behaviour is selfish because after all production runs of the keyboards are done, the molds and machinery will be destroyed. This means all knowledge in recreating these keyboards will be lost to history once again.
To deal with capitalistic people like Ellipse, you will have to act the same as he does. Name your price before doing any work and sharing any knowledge knowing it will be monitized. Require paid licenses to use, modify, or redistribute your work. I know this goes against the community spirit of DT and can restrict innovation. However, you can use this to fund research and development.
I am sorry that this free sharing of knowledge is coming to an end because keyboards are no longer a niche hobby. It is a business venture. Companies are known to use open-source tools and never contribute back. Some do not even give attribution like they are legally required to.
To deal with capitalistic people like Ellipse, you will have to act the same as he does. Name your price before doing any work and sharing any knowledge knowing it will be monitized. Require paid licenses to use, modify, or redistribute your work. I know this goes against the community spirit of DT and can restrict innovation. However, you can use this to fund research and development.
I am sorry that this free sharing of knowledge is coming to an end because keyboards are no longer a niche hobby. It is a business venture. Companies are known to use open-source tools and never contribute back. Some do not even give attribution like they are legally required to.
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
xxhellfirexx, yours is a very interesting contribution.xxhellfirexx wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 22:12 There is technically nothing wrong with Ellipse's actions from a legal standpoint. He is within his full right to treat this knowledge as trade secret. However, this behaviour is selfish because after all production runs of the keyboards are done, the molds and machinery will be destroyed. This means all knowledge in recreating these keyboards will be lost to history once again.
You may be correct in regards to Intellectual Property Rights.
I believe that "new model f Labs LLC" cannot legally sell in Europe:
- it is a company (US LLC)
- avoiding legal guarantee obligations (2 years)
- avoiding right to return (15 days)
But to be honest, I do not mind. I do not plan to buy from him.
I still remember when I saw the GB the first time and asked, naively, for efficient shipping to Europe. I hit reality and clearly understood that it was not a GB but a marketing exercise.
My point is that he is not acting as individual. He is running a business.
DT is meant for individuals sharing, not for businesses just selling. At least this is what I thought.
BTW: I would have no problems with a business helping development.
My point is that he should stop talking as any other DT member and start posting as a company.
There is a place in DT for it:
Agreed.xxhellfirexx wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 22:12 To deal with capitalistic people like Ellipse, you will have to act the same as he does. Name your price before doing any work and sharing any knowledge knowing it will be monitized. Require paid licenses to use, modify, or redistribute your work. I know this goes against the community spirit of DT and can restrict innovation. However, you can use this to fund research and development.
I am sorry that this free sharing of knowledge is coming to an end because keyboards are no longer a niche hobby. It is a business venture. Companies are known to use open-source tools and never contribute back. Some do not even give attribution like they are legally required to.
-
- Location: Canada
- DT Pro Member: -
There are cases where the manufacturer's warranty is more limited than the country's consumer laws. In that case, the country's laws takes precedence. Some contracts note this exception. If a company sold a product in a country and did not follow the country's laws and did not offer to make it right, they can be sued and have their product withdrawn from sale.idollar wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 23:38 I believe that "new model f Labs LLC" cannot legally sell in Europe:
- it is a company (US LLC)
- avoiding legal guarantee obligations (2 years)
- avoiding right to return (15 days)
- dcopellino
- Location: Italia - Napoli
- Main keyboard: IBM 4704 F400 brushed chrome
- Main mouse: Logitech laser wired
- Favorite switch: Buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: 0229
- Contact:
Like many other DT users, I am also following this discussion, which apparently has very personal and direct tones. At first, I watched it from the sidelines without intervening, although I feel involved in some way, having been greatly inspired by the valuable contributions of i$ to this community on capacitive keyboards, of which I am a great enthusiast. It’s true! I played with transforming a Model M into a Model F, following the tutorials posted by i$ called FEXT and FSSK. Inevitably, on a microscopic and individual scale, I put myself in Ellipse’s shoes, playing with reproducing the legendary Model F but equipping it with a modern layout typical of the Model M. I have inevitably drawn enormous benefits from the numerous contributions that many users of this community have provided on both the hardware and software levels to make this project something concrete, without which everything would have remained just a theoretical dream.idollar wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 10:52 Dear DT,
So this time I am not addressing you, Ellipse. I address all other DT members with my question:
Do you share my view ?
I mean are you fine with the way the forum has evolved by one single member ?
Are you find with a forum in which members take information, use the forum as their marketing and service platform without giving back in the same way that they have taken ?
I definitively don't agree with this approach.
I personally feel unfair to use DT to take information and work from others and give nothing.
Let's make it clear: I have no problem with the profit of 6000 keyboards. That's perfectly fine with me.
My point is and has always been sharing information and misusing (in my opinion) DT.
-- PD : I am sure that a long post will follow hiding this behind![]()
The actors involved in this project are several, and I am sure that, even having followed all their directions step by step, I will forget to cite all sources, starting from the masterful work of Tom Wong-Cornall, who laid the groundwork that many others then further expanded and updated, starting with wcass, pandrew, kmonov, listofoptions, dma, up to the latest developments from NathanA, Rico, and many others whom I will not list here due to my fault and ignorance.
Given this premise, as a simple user of this community, I wonder and ask - to the directly involved protagonists, both cited and not: - have you economically benefited from your valuable and necessary contributions? Otherwise, I would be quite shocked to learn that there are people capable of economically exploiting the work of others without recognizing the fair compensation. Please respond. After all, you are the only ones entitled to give meaning to this discussion, shedding light on the moral value of the people involved regarding the dilemma of take and give back prompted by I$, who started the thread. Thank you.
-
- Location: Sweden
- Main keyboard: Ellipse F62
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 3S
- Favorite switch: Buckling springs or clicky alps
Guess why FreeBSD is so popular amongst the likes of NetApp and Netflixxxhellfirexx wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 22:12Companies are known to use open-source tools and never contribute back. Some do not even give attribution like they are legally required to.

Again, given how many people that sit on the knowledge that Ellipse used to build these boards, how easy it is to coordinate chinese factories to make them, and how much money Ellipse is making doing this I just don't understand why you're not selling the same product but cheaper and with proper customer support? You're clearly upset enough about this to keep spamming the thread asking for answers you know you'll never get so why not just undercut him at his own game and deliver a better experience? Everyone would love it, and you'd be rich. If everything Ellipse knows has been handed to him by someone else on this forum, just ask that person? I don't understand what the issue is.wobbled wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 19:48Go kiss ass somewhere elseAngryCockroach wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 19:35 Giving back to the community by making new Model Fs and Beam Springs available is enough for me.
Am I really the only one who strongly suspects that the reason Ellipse is discounting his old stock so heavily is because he's earning fuck all from this and is deep into the red trying to make this a profitable business? If that would be the case, it's not really surprising that he's keeping whatever "secrets" he's got tight to his chest.
It's as if you multiply the number of sold keyboards and subtract the material cost and assume everything else has been free, such as loads of prototypes being sent across the world and rejected. Do you think that was pro bono from China?
I might be wrong, obviously, but I'd bet a lot of money that your view of Ellipse as the guy becoming a millionaire from the work of others and refusing to give back is false. I don't think his obsession with asking for reviews and trying to spread the word is to increase profits, I think it's to create them in the first place. That's why I accept some, let's say "non-european" business practices and still pay money to receive the product knowing I can't just hand it back to someone like logitech if a key is not seated correctly when I receive the thing. I think this is a fleeting moment where you're able to buy these keyboards factory new.
I'd be happy to buy these products from anyone really, but somehow only one person is actually selling them...
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Hello dcopellino,dcopellino wrote: 30 Dec 2024, 01:59idollar wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 10:52 Dear DT,
So this time I am not addressing you, Ellipse. I address all other DT members with my question:
Do you share my view ?
I mean are you fine with the way the forum has evolved by one single member ?
Are you find with a forum in which members take information, use the forum as their marketing and service platform without giving back in the same way that they have taken ?
I definitively don't agree with this approach.
I personally feel unfair to use DT to take information and work from others and give nothing.
Let's make it clear: I have no problem with the profit of 6000 keyboards. That's perfectly fine with me.
My point is and has always been sharing information and misusing (in my opinion) DT.
-- PD : I am sure that a long post will follow hiding this behind![]()
Like many other DT users, I am also following this discussion, which apparently has very personal and direct tones. At first, I watched it from the sidelines without intervening, although I feel involved in some way, having been greatly inspired by the valuable contributions of i$ to this community on capacitive keyboards, of which I am a great enthusiast. It’s true! I played with transforming a Model M into a Model F, following the tutorials posted by i$ called FEXT and FSSK. Inevitably, on a microscopic and individual scale, I put myself in Ellipse’s shoes, playing with reproducing the legendary Model F but equipping it with a modern layout typical of the Model M. I have inevitably drawn enormous benefits from the numerous contributions that many users of this community have provided on both the hardware and software levels to make this project something concrete, without which everything would have remained just a theoretical dream.
A very good introduction. I really like your summary.
Let me comment on the bold text above: "which apparently has very personal and direct tones".
The conversation may have become somehow very personal and direct because the information which I (we) needed was kept by one single member. Also, to my best knowledge, this DT user is the only one which is using the forum as a "personal" marketing & support platform.
I will break the ice with your very interesting question:dcopellino wrote: 30 Dec 2024, 01:59 The actors involved in this project are several, and I am sure that, even having followed all their directions step by step, I will forget to cite all sources, starting from the masterful work of Tom Wong-Cornall, who laid the groundwork that many others then further expanded and updated, starting with wcass, pandrew, kmonov, listofoptions, dma, up to the latest developments from NathanA, Rico, and many others whom I will not list here due to my fault and ignorance.
Given this premise, as a simple user of this community, I wonder and ask - to the directly involved protagonists, both cited and not: - have you economically benefited from your valuable and necessary contributions? Otherwise, I would be quite shocked to learn that there are people capable of economically exploiting the work of others without recognizing the fair compensation. Please respond. After all, you are the only ones entitled to give meaning to this discussion, shedding light on the moral value of the people involved regarding the dilemma of take and give back prompted by I$, who started the thread. Thank you.
The term "FSSK" and "FEXT", were proposed by myself some years ago. DT accepted the term which was never registered.
"Model F Labs LLC" used it to market their new product without any asking DT (nor myself).
"Model F Labs LLC" did not mention the root for the term until I complained.
"Model F Labs LLC" has never payed any royalties

In my personal case, there is no need to share any profit. Not at all.
To be 100% direct and honest: I complained because I did not like to see the FSSK term used as it creates confusion.
From the different posts which I read I can guess that the "Model F Labs LLC" is not sharing their profit.
I may be wrong ... "Model F Labs LLC" may want to contribute further.
Last edited by idollar on 30 Dec 2024, 03:06, edited 1 time in total.
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
A very interesting reasoning...genericusername57 wrote: 30 Dec 2024, 02:03
Again, given how many people that sit on the knowledge that Ellipse used to build these boards, how easy it is to coordinate chinese factories to make them, and how much money Ellipse is making doing this I just don't understand why you're not selling the same product but cheaper and with proper customer support? You're clearly upset enough about this to keep spamming the thread asking for answers you know you'll never get so why not just undercut him at his own game and deliver a better experience? Everyone would love it, and you'd be rich. If everything Ellipse knows has been handed to him by someone else on this forum, just ask that person? I don't understand what the issue is.
Am I really the only one who strongly suspects that the reason Ellipse is discounting his old stock so heavily is because he's earning fuck all from this and is deep into the red trying to make this a profitable business? If that would be the case, it's not really surprising that he's keeping whatever "secrets" he's got tight to his chest.
It's as if you multiply the number of sold keyboards and subtract the material cost and assume everything else has been free, such as loads of prototypes being sent across the world and rejected. Do you think that was pro bono from China?
I might be wrong, obviously, but I'd bet a lot of money that your view of Ellipse as the guy becoming a millionaire from the work of others and refusing to give back is false. I don't think his obsession with asking for reviews and trying to spread the word is to increase profits, I think it's to create them in the first place. That's why I accept some, let's say "non-european" business practices and still pay money to receive the product knowing I can't just hand it back to someone like logitech if a key is not seated correctly when I receive the thing. I think this is a fleeting moment where you're able to buy these keyboards factory new.
I'd be happy to buy these products from anyone really, but somehow only one person is actually selling them...
You may remember the original phrasing of my question (focus on the "why"):
(Give and take) why don't you please share the information you hold (CAD, springs specs/source, and how to purchase from China) with the community to help in producing the flippers in the same way the community has done with the critical components you have (and still are) using in your products?
A valid answer would be: because it would put at risk "Model F Labs LLC".
This would have clarified that this post is not a Group Buy. It is a marketing/support/maintenance/information... in summary... a commercial thread. And my point is that DT should be a place to share, not a place to provide free information and support to businesses. "Model F Labs LLC" has already a website for this purpose: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/
Once again ... give and take vs. sell an take.

I have no problem with companies making profit. I have problems from companies which just make profit.
My moral dictates that if you take something from a free place, you should try to offer something back for the benefit of the community. Coming back to the original phrasing: "in the same way"
-
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F122
Quite an eloquent argument…wobbled wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 19:48Go kiss ass somewhere elseAngryCockroach wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 19:35 Giving back to the community by making new Model Fs and Beam Springs available is enough for me.
- wobbled
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: HHKB PD-KB300 Pro 1
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 3
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0192
A fine example of very questionable practices. The paint job on this one didn’t even last a year and the customer is disappointed that his paint has worn away.lisdude wrote: 07 May 2024, 02:04 Does the classic style FSSK use the same powder coating as the F77? There was mention a few million pages back about possibly switching to a more modern and durable coating. I love my F77, but the powder coating didn't last a year before it started to come off. It's easily the biggest disappointment of an otherwise amazing product. Really ruins the aesthetic.
(for reference, here's what mine looks like about a year after switching to the beige case)
![]()
Ellipses response is to compliment a ‘well used’ board and to again suggest its normal. This case should’ve been replaced under a 2 year guarantee.
Again, greedy a hole.
- tron
- Location: OH, USA
- Main keyboard: IBM 3278
- Main mouse: Mionix Castor
- Favorite switch: IBM Beam Spring
- DT Pro Member: -
IIRC Ellipse had mentioned years ago that when these projects are complete he would write a book detailing the production process and lessons learned from the success and failures (I don't know if this is still on the table but recall a post about it). I think it's only fair to point out the risk involved with taking on a project like this, Ellipse has put in countless hours to setup a sustainable resource network to service these boards into the future and used profits to get parts dialed in via trial and error. There is always risk with group buys, it's common to have some minor imperfections that need touch up with boards in this price range. Also, the used market is quite expensive and IMO carries more risk when buying an older F or Beam from Ebay.xxhellfirexx wrote: 29 Dec 2024, 22:12 This means all knowledge in recreating these keyboards will be lost to history once again.