Matias Tactile Pro 4

[bhtooefr]

Decided to go ahead and post up a review of the Tactile Pro 4 on my blog: http://bhtooefr.org/blog/2013/08/22/mat ... rd-review/

Cliff's notes: I like it. If you like Mac layout keyboards, and Alps white or Cherry MX blue switches (it actually feels closer to MX blue than any other Alps white I've used, but it doesn't have the characteristics that I hate about MX blue - stiffer, though), and don't mind a loud keyboard (if you like Alps white, you probably don't mind a loud keyboard), you'll probably like it.

[Muirium]

Good. But for extra credit needs macro shots of the caps and dissembled switch comparisons with the taxi yellows, Futabas and complicated Alps you mention. Also sound recordings and creepy background music. Actually, the mood music is the vital part.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I noticed the double bump in the force curve the other day, but just with loose switches. That's not new, as there's a similar problem with the Fuhua switch, and the two are pretty similar.

Personally I never considered Fuhua switches to be sloppy—they feel pretty decent to me, and very smooth—but the Tactile Pro 3 has a horrible sound to it, just a cheap plastic kids toy clattering din sort of noise. The official recording made of the new switches sounds the same to me, with no reduction in the ringing problem, but it's good to know that, with the TP4 at least, they've alleviated some of the din that the keyboard makes. I also presume that they're probably a bit lighter, as the Fuhua switches are a bit on the heavy side, while the Matias quiet switches are absolutely perfectly weighted, exactly what Cherry cannot pull off (Goldilocks switch weight). I'm hoping that the click switches have the same perfect weight.

I'm certainly going to buy a Tactile Pro PC when they finally go on sale, even though the Matias design does cheese me off by removing the right Windows key and the application (menu) key.

@Muirium: yes, the wiki is rather light on Matias photos, especially considering things like the translucent switches and under-lit lock keys. Sadly it's outside of what I can photograph with my camera's dynamic range.

[Hypersphere]

Glad to see a review of the Matias Tactile Pro 4 and the Alps-inspired Matias switches. While searching for keyboards in the 60% to 80% range, I cam across the Matias Mini Tactile Pro and Mini Quiet Pro, and I liked some aspects of the layout.

Recently, I was able to borrow a Mini Tactile Pro 4 from a colleague for testing. I liked feel of the switches, but I am still not sure about the sound. I am accustomed to IBM buckling springs and Cherry blues and greens, but the Matias switches produce a sound that I think I might find irritating after long-term use. Nevertheless, the actuation force curve of Matias switches is interesting, and it could fill a gap between Cherry blues and greens; it might be like a Cherry black to which tactile and auditory feedback had been added.

However, the main thing was that I could not get past the case design and appearance of these keyboards, which to me look like Fisher-Price toys. If they would lose the contours to make the lines rectilinear, lop off the top bezel, change the finish from glossy to matte, and offer some keycap sets in contrasting colors, then I would be much more inclined to buy one.

In addition, in their Mini line of keyboards, I would like to see Matias lose the top F-key row and incorporate it into the Fn layer. The resulting product would serve what appears to be a growing market for 60%+ keyboards. It would be a bit bigger than a Poker II, adding cursor keys without unduly disturbing the main typing area, and it would be smaller than a mini "wall of keys", such as the Keycool 84, Choc Mini, or Race. It would be like an enhanced Leopold FC660M or FC660C, fleshing out the right-hand column of navigation keys and providing a refined 60%+ keyboard with Matias switches.

[bhtooefr]

I wonder if Fuhua's tooling wore out, then.

Because the TP3 that I typed on, a later production Japanese-layout one, felt absolutely atrocious. Vague key actuation, and it FELT like a cheap toy to type on. And the noise was dreadful.

The TP4 isn't MUCH quieter, but it is quieter IMO. The noise could be annoying to certain people, although a lot of it almost sounds like rattle somewhere that could be dampened somewhere.

Also, the double bump might be an Alps thing altogether - a few keys on my Micro Warehouse board have it, but much more subtly. Can't find it at all on my //c keyboard, though.

The problem with moving the F keys to the number row is that, on a Mac, you then need TWO layers of Fn - one for F-keys, and one for their hotkey functions.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I got mine in February 2011 — the switches are very tactile.

Tactile Pro 4 video — skip to around 4:58 for the Matias keyboard:

Sounds the same as my Tactile Pro 3, although it seems that the ringing from the switches has indeed been reduced; it's not the same deep sound as blue Alps though:

Nothing beats a Monterey K101/Tulip ATK 030244 though :)

[Muirium]

Interesting point Bhtooefr about function keys on the Mac. Honestly, I never use them as plain function keys at all: they are always media and window management keys for me. So my 60% design puts those hotkey functions into the function layer behind the corresponding number keys, and ditches F1 etc. into a second function layer for miscellaneous stuff I seldom if ever use.

From what I remember, a few function keys wound up as important shortcuts on Windows. Alt+F4 and straight F5 come to mind; versus Command+W and Command+R on the Mac. Function keys were born in the age before user configurable shortcut keys in software, when a handy overlay for your keyboard was a thoughtful touch for every major application. They had to have something to put in the huge cardboard box besides a stack of floppies and the manual!

Now to watch Daniel's videos…

Right. Just love the "Made in iMovie" one by Matias. (You can tell from the opening text using a built in transition with its default chunky/funky font.) I get what Matias was aiming at, but the keyboard is not compelling. Too strong associations with Apple's piss poor white keyboards with that design! It's too close a copy, right down to the janky legends.

But the sound, very interesting. Those Montereys are quite something. I much prefer the slab rectilinear look of the keyboard in the lower video too. It's got that eighties modernist vibe like NeXT's stuff and Wyse.

[bhtooefr]

http://bhtooefr.org/files/TactilePro4.ogg
http://bhtooefr.org/files/IIcMemExp.ogg

Both keyboards got a description of what the keyboard is, and what switches they use, at high speed. Low speed but high force "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog". Then low force, low speed pressing of T and space three times each.

[Muirium]

Same distance from the microphone? The IIc sounds so quiet and high pitched.

[bhtooefr]

Same distance. And it is very quiet.

The interesting thing is that the keys rattling is what makes most of the Tactile Pro 4's sound - I can actually get it to be rubber dome quiet on some keys.

[Muirium]

I'd experiment with O-rings and different caps on the Matias if you have the latter and whether the former even exists for Alps mount!

@Muirium: yes, the wiki is rather light on Matias photos, especially considering things like the translucent switches and under-lit lock keys. Sadly it's outside of what I can photograph with my camera's dynamic range.

Well, I have the camera but I haven't the keyboard. Only three lonely Matias switches without a plate to house them.

Speaking (elsewhere?) of the Poker stroking thread, these guys seem to have the ticket:

If only every damn picture on the internet came with an automatic declaration of its license.

[Hypersphere]

...
The problem with moving the F keys to the number row is that, on a Mac, you then need TWO layers of Fn - one for F-keys, and one for their hotkey functions.

Although each of my workstations has 3 computers (Mac, Linux, and Windows) and 3 monitors sharing a keyboard and mouse, my primary OS is Mac OS OS X. Perhaps because I switched to the Mac from Windows only about three years ago, I never did make use of the keyboard shortcuts that require the F-keys. Consequently, when I started playing with 60% keyboards, I did not miss the F-key row at all. Nevertheless, many others have made rich use of F-keys in keyboard shortcuts, and for this group of users, we need 75 to 80% boards.

My daily driver is an IBM SSK; before that, I used a full-size Model M for many years. With this heritage, I pilot my Mac in some unusual ways. Not having a "Win" key, I use System Prefs to remap the CapsLock to Command, and I leave Control and Alt as they are. I rarely use the Command key, which becomes Win under Windows and Meta under Linux.

Thinking, "If I can do without the F-key row, I can do without cursor keys," I tried using the Poker II. I like its form factor and standard layout, but I miss the arrow keys more than I had anticipated.

This led me to >60% boards, including the Matias Mini Tactile Pro and Mini Quiet Pro. I have tried the Mini Tactile Pro and although I primarily use a Mac, I find the board to be TOO Mac-centric, including the overly busy keycaps with their built-in cheat sheet for all the special characters I can type by using Option or Option-Shift. However, I like the switches, and although I have an aversion to the styling of the board, it seems well made.

Someone needs to start a company that produces excellent build-quality keyboards (especially sub-TKL please) with some interesting switch options, such as Alps, Matias, and buckling spring.

If we were to stick with Cherry switches because of availability or patent rights, I would like a Tex Beetle with a standard layout, truly intuitive Fn layer, and mx greens (or Alps/Matias or buckling springs). I am willing to dispense with the arrow keys for the sake of a standard layout (especially a right-shift that my errant pinky can land on safely).

Whatever the source of my next 60% board, the build quality and components should be first rate -- it should not require adding an aluminum case and a new set of keycaps to render it acceptable.

[bhtooefr]

FWIW, I think Alps and Cherry would need some slight mounting differences.

Cherry plate mount: Top of plate 5 mm above PCB
Alps plate mount: 4.5 mm above PCB

So, you could either go for having the switch sit slightly above the PCB for Alps (there's 4 mm of leg there, so that should be fine), or have a .5 mm standoff to lift the PCB for Alps.

As far as the pin spacing goes... I'm assuming that the diodes are going to be not integrated into the switch... so LED Cherry footprints will be used. (Adds more to the cost having more drilling done, but it adds a feature that some people would want.)

Cherry pin spacing in LED plate mount applications, center referenced: pin 1, 3.81 mm to left, 2.54 mm to rear, pin 2, 2.54 mm to right, 5.08 mm to rear, LED pins 1.27 mm to either side, 5.08 mm to front
Alps pin spacing, center referenced: 2.5 mm to either side, left pin 4 mm to rear, right pin 4.5 mm to rear

The one that would be a bit tricky is that right pin, although reversing one of the two switch types could also work nicely.

Of course, the real pain would be making a buckling spring switch that would work in this application. You actually could make a discrete membrane BS switch, though... be a pain to manufacture. Conductive BS is possible but I suspect would be debouncing hell.

[Muirium]

Capacitative buckling spring is being actively investigated. Its lower signal strength ancestor, beam spring, has been successfully mastered by Xwhatsit who makes a nice USB controller board now for those great beasts. So I wouldn't worry about the controller side of matters. The hard part is in the making of discrete switches. It's physically plausible, but nowhere within reach as yet; so I understand. I wouldn't wait on it.

The Duck Mini I linked above has an Alps PCB option, which that picture shows off. They're definitely doable.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46060.0

I'd suggest a Matias specific PCB (or start going on about hand wiring as I usually do) so that the LEDs are right. Matias switches scream out for fancypants lighting. That and the availability of classic keycaps is what draws me to them.

[Hypersphere]

Capacitative buckling spring is being actively investigated. Its lower signal strength ancestor, beam spring, has been successfully mastered by Xwhatsit who makes a nice USB controller board now for those great beasts. So I wouldn't worry about the controller side of matters. The hard part is in the making of discrete switches. It's physically plausible, but nowhere within reach as yet; so I understand. I wouldn't wait on it.

The Duck Mini I linked above has an Alps PCB option, which that picture shows off. They're definitely doable.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46060.0

I'd suggest a Matias specific PCB (or start going on about hand wiring as I usually do) so that the LEDs are right. Matias switches scream out for fancypants lighting. That and the availability of classic keycaps is what draws me to them.

I did not see a link above to the Duck Mini. Were you referring to the link within your message to the GH GB? Is this for the forthcoming Ducky Mini, which I understand to be a rebranded Poker II, but with LEDs, or is it for a DIY kit based on the Ducky Mini that could include an option for installing Alps (or Matias?) switches instead of Cherry switches?

I do not really care about LEDs. In fact, I would prefer not to have them.

Keycaps? I did not realize there were keycaps available for Alps switches.

What about the Matias variant of Alps? I am persuaded from the Matias description that the Matias version is indeed an improvement.

[Muirium]

Matias switches are Alps mount: the caps are compatible. So Matias switches are great if you have some classic Alps caps looking for a new home. Not so great if you're wanting to buy brand new ones though. Isn't Matias alone in their production these days?

As for links, I inadvertently buried them above the picture. Their underline is hard to see. I don't know much about the Duck Mini. I was simply wowed by those glowing underlit Matias pictures. None of my keyboards are backlit, but I think it has potential if done right. A whole matrix of them, individually switched, can be hooked into a custom controller and made to do creative things. I reckon some layer indicators behind the number keys could be useful for a layer maniac like me, and a slow fade out on the order of a minute or so for pressed keys could be quite amusing. Informative, actually, when comparing layouts.

The key to back lights is not to skimp on cap quality. Clear legends are fine: if doubleshot, which they never are. Otherwise it's all in the ambient glow.

[bhtooefr]

I believe Signature Plastics can do Alps mount...

[Hypersphere]

I heard something about adapters for Alps switches so that Cherry keycaps could be used. Any truth to this? It is probably a custom job for someone with a CAD and 3D printer setup.

[Muirium]

http://deskthority.net/off-topic-f10/gu ... t4809.html

[Hypersphere]

http://deskthority.net/off-topic-f10/gu ... t4809.html

It was a long thread. Couldn't tell if the adapters were a reality yet. Do such adapters exist and are they yet available? Such a thing could be a boon to those wishing to expand their modification options.

[Findecanor]

The adapters will add 4 mm to the height of the key, and Alps switches are quite wobbly on the horizontal.

My guess is that Signature Plastics will not add a tooling fee for reissuing a design previously manufactured for Cherry MX into a set with Alps mount, but don't quote me on that.
There is also a Taiwanese company that made white on red, black, blue or yellow doubleshot caps really cheap. They only made alphanumericals in US layout, though. There was a run for Cherry caps on Geekhack, but they also made Alps.

[Muirium]

Mr. Interface has moved on to experiments with IBM adapters. The beauty of a buckling spring cap is that (as long as it's the two piece variety) it is essentially universal. There's no tall mount inside to add height to a converter. In fact, all you need to do is make your own equivalent of the under shell, with whatever mount on the underside as is required. Then dyesub PBT goodness for all!

Of course, Cherry MX fit has all the cool caps these days and dominates group buys. So those are the ones we really want. Tricky, though. Because the cylinder on the underside of MX caps must be added to the height of the adapter. Well, unless you're fitting to some kind of mount that could swallow that whole shape.

[bhtooefr]

I'm just going to update this thread to say that Matias Click has now dethroned buckling spring as my favorite. (And it's a little less stiff than the Taxi Yellows, which helps its case, too.)

What the actual fuck.

[Muirium]

Indeed. Rating anything above buckling springs besides beam spring and arguably Topre is the kind of thing that will start a fist fight if you're not careful. Might want to sleep on that one…

[bhtooefr]

Topre definitely starts the arguing.

And I rate buckling spring (well, not IBM M - IBM F and Unicomp M, yes) above beam spring. Mainly because of that crazy stiff spacebar on the beam spring boards.

[Hypersphere]

I'm just going to update this thread to say that Matias Click has now dethroned buckling spring as my favorite. (And it's a little less stiff than the Taxi Yellows, which helps its case, too.)
...

Interesting! My favorite keyboard is still the IBM SSK, but the rating is a composite of build quality, fit and finish, styling, quality of stock keycaps, typing feel and sound, and my results on typing tests for speed and accuracy. The buckling spring switches figure heavily in the typing feel and sound as well as results on typing tests.

In my comparisons of 8 keyboards, there was 1 buckling spring, 1 Matias click, 5 Cherry blue, and 1 Cherry green switch. Unfortunately, I only had access to the Matias keyboard (Mini Tactile Pro 4) for a short time and did not have a chance to perform typing speed and accuracy tests. However, I found that in a comparison of the Cherry switches that blue was a bit too light and green was a bit too heavy. Based on published values for actuation forces, the Matias ought to fall in between Cherry blue and green. The IBM BS switch would likewise fall in between Cherry blue and green, but more toward the green. Of course, one needs to compare the complete force-time curves of each switch; however, the results examined this far tentatively suggest that I ought to like the feel of Matias click switches better than Cherry blue or green, and possibly even more than BS switches.

The keyboard form factor I am seeking is TKL or smaller, and so if I were to purchase a Matias board, I would want either the Mini Tactile Pro or the Mini Quiet Pro. Unfortunately, I do not like the styling of either one -- with their rounded contours and glossy finishes, they look like Fisher-Price toys. Moreover, the aspect ratio is off. Because I am fine with the F-keys in the Fn layer, I would like to see a Matias mini with the F-key row removed, along with the top bezel.

In any event, if I were to purchase a Matias now, based on the lesser of two evils of styling, I would go for the Mini Quiet Pro. The black looks marginally better than the white, and although I am primarily a Mac user, the Mini Tactile pro is too Mac-centric for me.

This leads to the question: How do the Matias Quiet switches compare to the Matias Click ("Tactile") switches? If the sound dampening affects the feel of the switch, I doubt that I would like it. Have you compared the two switches? If so, what did you find?

Thanks.

[bhtooefr]

Annoyingly, I don't have access to any kind of Matias Quiet Click switches.

The Keyboard Company lists the Matias switches as 60 cN ± 5, interestingly. Feels a touch stiffer than 60 cN, but overall feels lighter than even the Model F, which feels lighter to me than most Model Ms. Definitely feels stiffer than MX blue, but feels better. (I don't think MX blue was too light, I just don't like how it feels.)

[Hypersphere]

I might just have to spring (as it were) for both, a Mini Tactile Pro and a Mini Quiet Pro, to try them out. If I like one or the other or both, I might just keep both of them. I'm thinking that the keyboards might look less monotonous if the keycaps were swapped, putting the black caps on the white body and vice-versa, although I have heard that pulling and reinserting keycaps on Matias switches is a tad more difficult than it is with Cherry switches.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Matias quiet switches don't feel mushy at all — if anything, they're a bit gritty. If you want something that's heavier than Cherry MX brown/blue, but not balky like vintage Alps, Matias quiet switch is absolutely spot on — it's the exact perfect medium weight that I was hoping it would be. It retains that superb Alps tactility — think blue Alps, but lighter and easier on your fingers.

No Matias click switch for me — still waiting for Tactile Pro for PC to be introduced and to make its way across the pond.

I do think it's a shame that Matias have such poor aesthetic sense — I'm hoping that Matias can convince Diatec to re-open the Zero product line, and put Matias switches in it. Then get the Keyboard Company to order in ISO batches.

That said, I'm also quite fond of MX clear, which is much smoother than the Matias quiet switch, and a good weight at the actuation point. At least you can get clear switches in a more elegant keyboard (mmm WASD v2 with clears would be nice). I would be awfully tempted to move to clears if my MX brown board were to snuff it, as much as I love MX brown.

[Muirium]

The broad range of Cherry MX is another reason why Matias has a hill to climb to become a competitor. Cherry has multiple weights of click, tactile and linear; while Matias has just one of the first and second, and no linear option at all.

I do like the transparent switch housings, the sensible weight of both versions' springs, and the compatibility with classic Alps caps. Not to mention the price! But it's hard to gain traction when you have a firmly established rival like Cherry to face, with a version of their product tailored for almost every customer.