deskthority

A recent acquisition had a complete surprise in it. I purchased an Apple Clone and the owner said he's throw in this "Wizard" computer for an extra $50. I thought it was a more vintage computer (he didn't take any pics since it was a throw in) but it turns out it was a 286 (not 386SX as was printed on the box) based computer. Included was this Computerland keyboard.

This keyboard looks pristine. In fact, I had to wipe down my finger prints because the black metal plate on the back was spotless. Even the cord is still wrapped but if it was used, I can't see signs of it. Internally this is a Datacomp DFK-777NA keyboard with PCB dated August 1986 but the components are several months later. When I pulled out the keyboard sand mashed down on the keys, there was several clicks. I pulled off a key cap and I saw blue. I did a quick search and couldn't find any information on this particular keyboard so I unsoldered a key switch to check if it was real. Well, it is a blue Alps key switch so I finally have one by accident.
It must be a re-badge of something but I really love the layout. It's an XT/AT switchable keyboard with the function keys on the side like the Model F XT but has a full numeric keypad like the Model F AT. This might become a daily driver for a bit.

Here are some pics.

Oh. Now I understand the purpose of the Model F "ears" and feel slightly stupid.

Oh hey I bought something similar in terms of (case) looks on ebay a couple of days ago, minus the computerland logo and stepped keys that is, would be a pleasant surprise if it did turn out to be blue alps
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Tastatur-58-/222194961568

I thought it was a DFK-700 at first, but I guess this model is related. Awesome find, are you saying you never had blue Alps before? How are you liking them?

Dra wrote: Oh hey I bought something similar in terms of (case) looks on ebay a couple of days ago, minus the computerland logo and stepped keys that is, would be a pleasant surprise if it did turn out to be blue alps
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Tastatur-58-/222194961568

Dra,
That looks bang on but I'm pretty certain my key caps are PBT double shots. Do tell when you get it. It looks otherwise identical minus the Computerland label. That would be local branding anyway.

Chyros wrote: I thought it was a DFK-700 at first, but I guess this model is related. Awesome find, are you saying you never had blue Alps before? How are you liking them?

Nope, no blue Alps before. I thought I'd like Cherry MX blues but I was disappointed when I used it. We'll have to see how this goes. I get back to work after next week so I'll try it there. I find I need to use it without focusing on it to see if I like it. I use a MS Surface at home so I don't use a keyboard other than the Surface keyboard at home. I'm a Model M aficionado so it may be a challenge.

yeah, the seller had a bunch of interesting boards that I couldn't find a lot of info about the exact model on, I fatfingered something while on mobile and accidentally bought a rubber dome board from him as well, no idea why i put that dome board on my watch list in the first place

So far I bought a LK201 clone that I already have at home and will review at some point 2 boards with this Model F AT-like layout, previous post and a multitech one (which is rumored to also have blue alps) http://www.ebay.de/itm/222194929140, and a Unikey 601

snuci wrote:

Dra wrote: Dra,
That looks bang on but I'm pretty certain my key caps are PBT double shots. Do tell when you get it. It looks otherwise identical minus the Computerland label. That would be local branding anyway

In all my experience with Alps, these look like Alps Electric made ABS double shot caps. Since the molding is the exact same and PBT caps have a distinct molding unto themselves, I'd say these are most likely ABS double shots that just haven't suffered from yellowing.

I haven't ever seen Alps-made double shot PBT caps.

E3E wrote: In all my experience with Alps, these look like Alps Electric made ABS double shot caps. Since the molding is the exact same and PBT caps have a distinct molding unto themselves, I'd say these are most likely ABS double shots that just haven't suffered from yellowing.

I don't doubt your experience so I may be wrong. Normally I wash the key caps on all of my keyboards but this one looked unused so I didn't wash these. This allows for the "sink test" (whether they sink or not and I know this is not exactly a science) but it sometimes helps. I also figure this out by the "scratch" test. These have an egg shell texture that I associate with PBT. When I lightly scratch them on the side of the key cap with finger nails, I find that PBT has a higher pitch sound than ABS as well. This, of course, is non-conclusive but short of a destructive chemical test, this is how I determine if they are PBT. If there is a non-destructive conclusive test, I'd be happy to try it.

I've previously searched on a couple of occasions to see how I can determine if key caps are PBT so I am quite interested to learn how.

snuci wrote:

E3E wrote: In all my experience with Alps, these look like Alps Electric made ABS double shot caps. Since the molding is the exact same and PBT caps have a distinct molding unto themselves, I'd say these are most likely ABS double shots that just haven't suffered from yellowing.

I don't doubt your experience so I may be wrong. Normally I wash the key caps on all of my keyboards but this one looked unused so I didn't wash these. This allows for the "sink test" (whether they sink or not and I know this is not exactly a science) but it sometimes helps. I also figure this out by the "scratch" test. These have an egg shell texture that I associate with PBT. When I lightly scratch them on the side of the key cap with finger nails, I find that PBT has a higher pitch sound than ABS as well. This, of course, is non-conclusive but short of a destructive chemical test, this is how I determine if they are PBT. If there is a non-destructive conclusive test, I'd be happy to try it.

I've previously searched on a couple of occasions to see how I can determine if key caps are PBT so I am quite interested to learn how.

The sink test is more or less completely useless, especially with doubleshot caps as they tend to ALL sink. I wouldn't trust sound or scratch tests either. Try an AcMe test on a bit of the underside of one cap to see if it's PBT or ABS .

Just quickly swab a bit of acetone with a Q-tip on the underside of a cap, wait a few seconds, and if you can leave an impression with a fingernail or equivalent, it's ABS.

chzel wrote: Just quickly swab a bit of acetone with a Q-tip on the underside of a cap, wait a few seconds, and if you can leave an impression with a fingernail or equivalent, it's ABS.

I'll do this test tomorrow provided that I have acetone. I have paint thinner. Hopefully it is acetone based.

snuci wrote:

chzel wrote: Just quickly swab a bit of acetone with a Q-tip on the underside of a cap, wait a few seconds, and if you can leave an impression with a fingernail or equivalent, it's ABS.

I'll do this test tomorrow provided that I have acetone. I have paint thinner. Hopefully it is acetone based.

Sometimes, but not usually. It's often based on apolar aprotic solvents, which won't affect anything.

Acetone is dirt cheap though, it's an industrial byproduct of a benzene upgrading reaction, it costs fuck all .

It cost $8 at Canadian Tire (a local department store here). Maybe I'll be lucky and find it at a dollar store.

You don’t need to test. I’d be shocked if those weren’t ABS.

Just still has the texture on it because it wasn’t used. Lucky guy.

chzel wrote: Just quickly swab a bit of acetone with a Q-tip on the underside of a cap, wait a few seconds, and if you can leave an impression with a fingernail or equivalent, it's ABS.

I tried it and I must be doing it wrong because I tried a couple of other keyboard key caps and it didn't work. The stuff dries up before it gets a chance to do anything.

snuci wrote:

chzel wrote: Just quickly swab a bit of acetone with a Q-tip on the underside of a cap, wait a few seconds, and if you can leave an impression with a fingernail or equivalent, it's ABS.

I tried it and I must be doing it wrong because I tried a couple of other keyboard key caps and it didn't work. The stuff dries up before it gets a chance to do anything.

Are you actually using acetone? Oo

I'm guessing this is it? http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/acetone-0475871p.html

Chyros, maybe a key cap testing video is in order? That would be good.

snuci wrote: Chyros, maybe a key cap testing video is in order? That would be good.

I kind of showed it during my keycap QKT video, or do you mean I should make a dedicated video?

snuci wrote: I'm guessing this is it? http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/acetone-0475871p.html

Hmmm, yeah, looks just like normal acetone, should work Oo .

It's also about 5x more expensive than the acetone we get xD . £6 a winchester IIRC.

Chyros wrote: I kind of showed it during my keycap QKT video, or do you mean I should make a dedicated video?

Damn it. I thought I saw it somewhere but then I wasn't sure. That was good enough. The inner key cap is jet black. A little acetone rub and the black started to come off. It's ABS. I gotta say, these key caps are pristine though. I guess I should stop attributing very white caps with PBT.

Thanks for pointing the video out.

By no means is it a sure fire way of differentiating the two, but in my experience with many different Alps keyboards, these are the main visual differences I notice between the two:

PBT

Has a "dry' look, which means that it's got more of a matte finish. In my experience, I haven't seen any that exhibit the same kind of luster that ABS caps do. Of course, when worn, they shine like any other material.

ABS

Has more of a sheen, even on unshined, textured key caps. It catches the light more than PBT does, comparing two mint sets of each material.

This is what I've seen when it comes to Alps, but I'm sure there are some exceptions. This might simply be down to the mold textures.

Beyond that, of course, double shot molding is typical for ABS and dye sublimation is typical for PBT. Alps have both distinctive and separate molding for double shots as well as their dye subbed PBT caps.