deskthority

Hi keyboard experts, I need your help.
I'm looking for recommendations for a new keyboard with very tactile switches. My current keyboard is a terminal 3476 IBM model M and even though I'm fairly happy with it, some of the keys are getting scratchy despite a thorough clean, and the switches just don't have enough tactility for me to begin with. I'm looking for something that's either ready made, or easy to assemble. I like a sharp tactile drop, heavy on the top with little or no pre-travel. I have no preference for actuation, and I don't mind some mushiness even, as long as it's not too much.

After some research it looks like a GMMK with box royals would be a good fit - and affordable too. That's the option I'm leaning towards (if anyone can recommend some nice compatible keycaps that would be great also).

So, are there other "better" tactile switches you'd recommend instead of box royals? I prefer fairly heavy tactility. I actually like the tactility of some rubber domes even. I'd consider a HHKB or leopold also, as they seem right up my alley. I'd love to hear more opinions on those too. I've heard of zeleos but they seem crazy expensive..
Or maybe there's an actually good membrane board out there? Or maybe some other complete boards that you'd think would fit my preferences?

Anyway thanks for any feedback!

@PirateGamARRR: Welcome to DT!

Many of us here also like keyboard switches with a high degree of tactility. Here are some of my thoughts:

1. Greatest tactility that I have experienced in a keyboard: IBM 5140 "luggable" computer. The keyboard has SKCM Brown Alps switches. Very heavy and prounounced tactility. Also found in some Magnavox VideoWriter keyboards. However, these boards are not easy to convert for use with a modern computer.

2. Zealios or Zilent v2 switches. These are Cherry mx clones that you can purchase from ZealPC and some other outlets for installing in DIY keyboards. They have pronounced tactility that is high on the force-displacement curve, and they are lighter on bottoming-out than Cherry mx clear swtiches.

3. IBM Model F capacitive switches. These are found in some vintage IBM keyboards such as the XT or AT. You can also order a brand-new F62 or F77 from Ellipse's project (see thread here on DT or over on Geekhack (GH).

4. SKCM vintage Alps or Alps-clones (e.g., Matias). I have many Alps-switch and clones keyboards, and I prefer the SKCM tactile or clicky variety to the SKCL linear models. Many people favor SKCM Blue Alps, but these are currently very expensive. It is fairly easy to find SKCM White Alps boards; some are available in PS/2, and most can be converted to USB without a great deal of trouble. Matias click or tactile boards are available from Matias or KBP, but be aware that these switches have recently had some quality-control issues. One of my favorite keyboards is the Northgate Omnikey 101 US ANSI with SKCM White Alps.

5. Topre-switch keyboards, including the HHKB Pro 2 (my all-time favorite), Realforce 87U, Realforce R2, and Leopold FC660C, among some others. My favorite weight in Topre is 45g, but from your description, you might prefer 55g. The heavier weight is available in some Realforce models. For others, such as the HHKB, you would need to do a dome transplant.

Good luck!

Hey @Hypersphere thanks for this!

I just ordered a black on black Realforce 87U (the one with 55g). I had heard of realforce but hadn't really considered it, thanks for the recommendation. Got it on sale too, at 186 EUR. From the reviews I saw it sounds like it will be pretty much what I'm looking for.

I do want to try SKCM brown alps at some point - that magnavox videowriter keyboard looks awesome btw - but right now I really just want a ready-to-go option.

Thanks again

If the tactility is not enough for you, check out the BKE domes. They are much more tactile than the stock domes, even too much so for some people.

PirateGamARRR wrote: 25 Mar 2019, 10:25 Hey @Hypersphere thanks for this!

I just ordered a black on black Realforce 87U (the one with 55g). I had heard of realforce but hadn't really considered it, thanks for the recommendation. Got it on sale too, at 186 EUR. From the reviews I saw it sounds like it will be pretty much what I'm looking for.

I do want to try SKCM brown alps at some point - that magnavox videowriter keyboard looks awesome btw - but right now I really just want a ready-to-go option.

Thanks again

You are very welcome.

After you get your RF87UB55, see how you like the sound. It seems that many people enjoy the down-stroke "thock" of Topre switches, but they dislike the return-stroke "clack". If the clack annoys you, you can install silencing rings, but keep in mind that this entails opening up the keyboard and installing a ring inside each of the switches. If you do this, I suggest lubing the switches and stabilizers as well.

For rings, I have been selling my own on eBay for a few years. However, within the last year or so, there are a number of other vendors sourced from China that are much cheaper than mine -- I cannot compete with the low cost of materials and labor in China. I have not tried rings other than my own, but reports I have seen indicate that the other rings are probably okay.

For lubing switches, I use SuperLube 51010 synthetic oil applied sparingly with a small paintbrush just to the slider rails. For lubing stabilizers, I use SuperLube 21010 synthetic grease applied to articulations and friction points of the stabilizers.

If the downstroke of the spacebar is too noisy, I apply strips of very thin sel-adhesive polyurethane foam to the top plate where the spacebar makes contact.

I am typing this on the latest model of Realforce, the RF R2 PFU Special Edition all-45g Silent TKL. This one costs about $100 more than the regular edition without siliencing, but I think it is worth the cost for the pre-installed silencing rings and special purple sliders that compensate for the small thickness of the rings.

PirateGamARRR wrote: 25 Mar 2019, 10:25 Hey @Hypersphere thanks for this!

I just ordered a black on black Realforce 87U (the one with 55g)... Got it on sale too...

This comes to my mine when I first read your history of Model M.
That's a great To-go purchase decision.

My Topre (HHKB Pro2) has been my best (and cheapest) keyboard purchase decision, with effortless and satisfying outcome.

@Menhin: I still rate my HHKB Pro 2 as my all-time favorite keyboard. However, perfection gets dull after a while, so I like to mix it up by rotating through a variety of other keyboards (RF87UB45, RF87UB55, HHKB Pro 2 w/55g domes, various Cherry mx and clone boards, IBM Model M, IBM Model M SSK, IBM XT, various SKCL and SKCM Alps boards, and others).

My HHKB Pro 2 is far from my cheapest and effortless board, as I like to install silencing rings, lube the switches and stabilizers, and change keycaps. Two things I don't have to change on the HHKB are the 60% form factor and the HHKB layout!

Here are my links to typing sounds on my RF87UB55 before and after silencing:

Before: After: The sounds are from the same typing sequence at the same microphone settings.

@Hypersphere
I also lubed my HHKB (with 105 and stabs with superlube) after 2+ years of use - best thing I've done to treat my typing fingers.

Thanks for that! I'll have to wait till I get it to see if I mind the sound. From the first clip, sounds ok to me stock. I have headphones on 99% of the time anyway so it probably won't bother me much. The smoothness on the other hand will be something I'll look into in more detail as I really don't like scratchy switches.

I like the happy hacking form factor too, but I can't live without the Home cluster+arrowkeys for the work I do. I use them too much to be using modifiers to access them.

Are there custom keycaps for the Realforce 87U that you'd recommed?

PirateGamARRR wrote: 26 Mar 2019, 01:10 Are there custom keycaps for the Realforce 87U that you'd recommed?

Readily available custom aftermarket keysets and keyset for Topre in general are unfortunately kinda scarce. The only one I can think of is the Kbdfans 9009 set. Don't know anything about the quality of the set though.

I use 88U 45g as my daily driver, and I'm seconding the above mentioned positives of the Realforce. It is an excellent board.

Regarding custom keycaps for Topre-switch keyboards, apart from the knockoffs being sold on KBDfans, I agree with Tias that custom sets are currently quite scarce. I got my custom sets from "Widebasket" on eBay back when they were still being produced by Realforce. Now the supply has apparently dried up. You can, however, find replacement sets for the HHKB Pro 2 on eBay and Amazon, and these will fit RF boards -- this is a way of getting white printing alpha caps for a black RF board, for example. You can also find Red Esc caps for the HHKB, and these will fit RF boards.

I am hoping that RF will reintroduce replacement and custom sets for their R2 boards, but I have not yet seen any announcements about this.

@Hypersphere I found these adapters on the KBDfans website you guys mentioned:
"Topre keycaps to Mx keycaps Adapter-X"
Anyone has any experience with these? People in the comments say the keycaps didn't fit very well and looked tilted?!

They are quite loose and indeed the keycaps look a bit rotated. They are also, probably, the "best" you can get *without* sacrificing a Novatouch keyboard (or a Realforce Topre RGB, except that you can't use the stabilizers for the larger keycaps, since they look different). Also this thread may be useful to you: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19096