deskthority

BTW, I don't feel great about you having to take a loss on this GB after all the time and effort you've put into it. Please give us a full accounting after delivery, and let us contribute towards the overage.

Techno Trousers wrote: BTW, I don't feel great about you having to take a loss on this GB after all the time and effort you've put into it. Please give us a full accounting after delivery, and let us contribute towards the overage.

I agree you shouldn't be taking a loss that doesn't seem right :S

It seems like new people continue to show interest in your M/F either explicitly or implicitly.

I don't know how many "spares" you are having made, but there probably could be a long (lizard) tail on sales of these things.

Ir0n wrote:

Techno Trousers wrote: BTW, I don't feel great about you having to take a loss on this GB after all the time and effort you've put into it. Please give us a full accounting after delivery, and let us contribute towards the overage.

I agree you shouldn't be taking a loss that doesn't seem right :S

I wouldn't read it as a bad thing. It is a personal decision, and the loss is based on the cost we contributed to foam (not the project as a whole). We will still be in the black for the total project, and with everything accounted for... about the only thing that could still surprise us would be the shipping. Rates would have to go up dramatically in the short term, and that's unlikely.


The roll die is relatively inexpensive (no where close to the price of mold die), and we will be able to reuse from here on out as we will own it outright (like our box die). Also, the silicon rubber was going to be a "taxing" (slow speed/high power with large amounts of debris) run for the laser when compared to the foam. The foam layers will change in the future with different layout options, but these inserts wouldn't.

Moral... it's goodness. We could even use it on other materials besides silicon rubber if we decided we wanted to improve existing other Fs. Think adding thin foam stabilizer rings over existing F foam to areas of where some keys aren't consistent... like shims.

fohat wrote: It seems like new people continue to show interest in your M/F either explicitly or implicitly.

I don't know how many "spares" you are having made, but there probably could be a long (lizard) tail on sales of these things.

Currently planning to make ~20 extras of these kits (not including what I am keeping for myself) to be sold a few months into the future on a wider scale than DT. They will be significantly more expensive, and will be used to generate funds for our mold dies. As you say... we will have future projects focused around the F switch where this die cost will prove to be a good decision.

Who else votes that the licence to make IBM keyboards is taken off unicomp and given to lot_lizzard, beacuse quite frankly there efforts of late have been pathetic.

I would love that, but realistically it's two different markets. Unicomp is going for the lower end, low margin, high volume market. lot_lizard is doing high end, low volume, higher margin (for the extra keyboards). For the MF to be a viable, ongoing product, there would have to be a market out there for $250+ buckling spring keyboards. As much as we love the Model F feel (for me it blows away MX and every other mechanical switch), I don't think the mass market would be willing to pay the premium.

I do think it would be really cool if there could be a"crossover" eventually, though. Maybe Unicomp would be interested in carrying some future MF keyboard and parts. lot_lizard will have molds for barrels and flippers, and that's one of the most expensive startup costs.

It seems like the "gaming market" drives a lot of this.

NKRO is great but are the travel and reset times good enough to game with these? That is the question to crack the market.

My $0.02 but what do I know, I never game.

Techno Trousers wrote: I would love that, but realistically it's two different markets. Unicomp is going for the lower end, low margin, high volume market. lot_lizard is doing high end, low volume, higher margin (for the extra keyboards). For the MF to be a viable, ongoing product, there would have to be a market out there for $250+ buckling spring keyboards. As much as we love the Model F feel (for me it blows away MX and every other mechanical switch), I don't think the mass market would be willing to pay the premium.

I do think it would be really cool if there could be a"crossover" eventually, though. Maybe Unicomp would be interested in carrying some future MF keyboard and parts. lot_lizard will have molds for barrels and flippers, and that's one of the most expensive startup costs.

But most people outside our twisted little tribe who like model Ms still want quality, with economy of scale i think we could get a MF to the point where its viable for market. It would also be a massive boost for unicomp in the wider tech world to bring a what would be for most people " brand new" keyboard to market and possibly bring them some money to fix that terrible dye-sub machine they use nowdays.

andrewjoy wrote:
money to fix that terrible dye-sub machine they use nowdays.

I thought that they replaced it a couple of years ago, about the time that they started printing red, green, and blue legends.

My problem has generally been the random placement of legends, not the printing itself.

fohat wrote:

andrewjoy wrote:
money to fix that terrible dye-sub machine they use nowdays.

My problem has generally been the random placement of legends, not the printing itself.

This for me too. And the unfortunate way their "pebble and pearl" color scheme doesn't match the original IBM colors.

fohat wrote: It seems like the "gaming market" drives a lot of this.

NKRO is great but are the travel and reset times good enough to game with these? That is the question to crack the market.

My $0.02 but what do I know, I never game.

I'm a pretty heavy gamer but I got to be honest... I can't tell the difference in using say a MX red to bs for games. Lol

I play overwatch league and diablo 2 plus many others on an AT.. :p

I mean...it might matter more at a higher level of play..but for the most part I really don't think it matters...just slap something like "spring loaded feedback great for those intense gaming moments" on your box and you'll be fine.

and don' forget to add LEDs , and horrible horrible fonts

And then, once we've established the lot_lizard brand in the premium mechanical keyboard category, we switch to rubberdomes, go to mass production, and rake in the profits!

Scarpia wrote: And then, once we've established the lot_lizard brand in the premium mechanical keyboard category, we switch to rubberdomes, go to mass production, and rake in the profits!

Spoiler:

...oh wait, the 90s just called and they want their IBM peripherals business model back.

At least early IBM RD where not that bad .

Razer seems to be following that business plan lately. I'm hoping they don't bring down the whole mechanical keyboard revival movement with them.

They seem to be doing fine... In fact, most non-enthusiast reviews of the Ornata seem to be positive. Ugh.

They also account for about 60% of all Google searches for keyboards, or something ridiculous like that.

andrewjoy wrote: Who else votes that the licence to make IBM keyboards is taken off unicomp and given to lot_lizzard, beacuse quite frankly there efforts of late have been pathetic.

I would say calling their efforts pathetic would be a generous assessment of their performance for a while now.

Normally, I would not hesitate to throw shade on Unicomp either, but they can produce some pretty decent things if you ask them to. I recently purchased an English-Cyrillic keyset from them and I was surprised by how decent the dyesubs were. They even did green Alt and Sys Rq legends for me, something that you would not see on Unicomp or even late Lexmark keyboards!

Ugh, but that fake pebble color! Otherwise, quite nice, especially compared to some of their other efforts.

Yeah.. Too warm/red of a hue, and the color could be more consistent. The pearl keycaps are much better in that respect.

You're sure those were not simply old stock they had since forever?

They are not, I arranged the order for the caps with Don at Unicomp. He told me that they originally printed the sublegends in grey (at least as late as 2014, see the photo below), but had since changed it to blue due to complaints that they were too difficult to see. Also, the legends are in regular Helvetica, and not the special IBM version.

I could find only one other example of the keyset. A GH member bought a set with gray sublegends and in the old IBM Helvetica typeface in 2014. A photo of it mixed with Unicomp's newer gray keycaps:

andrewjoy wrote: Who else votes...

You f#$%ers crack me up. In all honesty, we are reaching out to Unicomp with our finished product here. At minimum, it is me sending them a complete kit for the full-size, and we discuss it. At most, we actually show up on their doorstep (bourbon trail is a bucket list) and saying... "this is what we want!!!". At this point, I have had a multiple minute conversation with many levels in their organization. We want them to succeed, they just LACK vision (we all agree). Let us prove that a niche exists for this switch, and the investment should be considered.


Nothing would make me happier than Unicomp to run with our designs "properly"

WCass brought up a really intriguing point that we might become the AMG to their Mercedes. I think there is significant value there for a variety of reasons if they would agree. Moral... once the end product is in hand, "we'll talk" and hopefully reach a consensus. For us to enter the relationship wanting 0% of the proceeds, with a enthusiast backing, it has to be at least MILDLY intriguing. Even for some drunk "Bourbon Trail" residents...

emdude wrote: They are not, I arranged the order for the caps with Don at Unicomp.

Excellent. I remember reading past concerns about the quality of their APL legends, good to know they can get things tuned in.

lot_lizard wrote:

andrewjoy wrote: Who else votes...

You f#$%ers crack me up. In all honesty, we are reaching out to Unicomp with our finished product here. At minimum, it is me sending them a complete kit for the full-size, and we discuss it. At most, we actually show up on their doorstep (bourbon trail is a bucket list) and saying... "this is what we want!!!". At this point, I have had a multiple minute conversation with several levels in their organization. We want them to succeed, they just LACK vision. Let us prove that niche needs exist for this switch!!!

Nothing would make me happier than Unicomp to run with our designs "properly"

WCass brought up a really intriguing point that we might become the AMG to their Mercedes. I think there is significant value there for a variety of reasons if they would agree. Moral... once the end product is in hand, "we'll talk" and hopefully reach a consensus. For us to enter the relationship wanting 0% of the proceeds, with a enthusiast backing, it has to be at least MILDLY intriguing. Even for some drunk "Bourbon Trail" residents...

This is excellent news and I certainly hope this goes somewhere. For as long as the MF has been discussed, I thought it was a pity that these Model F revival projects would only be run once or twice without practical possibility of producing continuous stock; I felt Unicomp would be more than willing to produce Model F keyboards if given the means to. I believe there is a demand for Model F keyboards and I believe this can happen!

emdude wrote: For as long as the MF has been discussed, I thought it was a pity that these Model F revival projects would only be run once or twice without practical possibility of producing continuous stock; I felt Unicomp would be more than willing to produce Model F keyboards if given the means to. I believe there is a demand for Model F keyboards and I believe this can happen!

This is mostly my fault... I just can't deal with doddling. Personal, others, whatever life... let's rock this boat.


My daughter looks at me and says "My homework is not due till Friday..." My response "correct... but today is Tuesday, and it's the new Thursday night, so get crackin!!!"

My daughter is 5 btw.

Waffling is a peave. We'll see...

No worries, really appreciate all the work that you've already put into the MF and other projects, but I hope it doesn't come at the expense of your own personal life.. If for whatever reason, it needs to wait or it can't happen, it is totally understandable.

Giving all this to unicomp? The guys who can't set up a dye sub printer for consistency and can't deburr key caps?
What's the point? Sure, it will stave off their _timely_ death a bit - but who needs a walking zombie to keep walking?

(truth to be told, as an owner of 4 AEK IIs*, I can attest that apple also can't do that. Keyboards manufactured in the same year have different font weights) But at least they cared enough to offer consistent sets, and at least the positoning is the same.

*) I only needed one but they were one lot from goodwill. 1 was even working, and from other 3 there's 2 USB NKRO versions and lots of spares (like anyone wants a handful of ALPS? or an almost complete set of caps?)

So, well, you'd be better turning this thing over to me AHAHAHA - despite the fact I don't have any manufacturing experience and a physical person. Because I do care _somewhat_, and this is EONS more than they do.

PS: may be I should move to Lexington KY and join the company of Chief Caring Officer or something.

DMA wrote: PS: may be I should move to Lexington KY and join the company of Chief Caring Officer or something.

haha... I smell a MASS Unicomp employee exodus in the near future. I agree they are dying. The idea with any partnership would be to give them our designs and let them morph into their own little animal while we journey on. We have a lot of good ideas in the works for improved beamspring switch designs (shorter profile), etc, and it would let our little hobby work here have an afterlife. We prove the concepts with our GBs, and let them worry about mass producing. There is a market for the MF (small, but there) going forward, but the fun in all of this is coming up with it in the first place (as you say !!SCIENCE!!). Let someone else try to profit from it if they can manage to. It keeps them "viable", or at least appear to the outside world like they are still trying. Maybe then we could influence the dye-subbing a bit. I think the cap and cap mold quality itself is acceptable, it's just the fonts and placement that are horrid (along with picking bad color matches).


SIDE NOTE: I have been on the phone with our metal fab friends almost daily this week to really finalize future visions. They have agreed to be our mold producer for barrels, flippers, Cherry adapters, whatever going forward. I have their mold templates (Solidworks), and will start taking a first pass at the mold creation. They will fine tune my models and mill them out for us. This will save MASSIVE amounts going forward (think 1/2). Pretty amped about it. I think we have realistic chances of knocking this stuff out

I guess now is as good a time as any to mention that I'm building an ergonomic split beamspring keyboard...