deskthority

Of course, it is possible that Matias has gotten it right with their Matias switch, just as IBM did with the buckling spring. And Matias actually offers two versions, the normal click (tactile) and the quieted one.

I have only had a brief tryout of the Matias Mini Tactile Pro 4. I think I may have to go even deeper in debt and acquire the Mini Tactile Pro and the Mini Quiet Pro for a more thorough test and comparison.

Coming at this from a background on the Model M and SSK makes it virtually impossible to find anything as good, let alone better than, the IBM buckling spring. "How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Paree'?"

Perhaps the best I could hope for is finding something acceptable in a smaller package than the SSK.

I hope that debt is metaphorical!

There's something to be said for a linear switch. As click mad as I am for the most part, I quite like MX red and black. Not as my main keyboard but every once in a while.

Muirium wrote:I hope that debt is metaphorical!

There's something to be said for a linear switch. As click mad as I am for the most part, I quite like MX red and black. Not as my main keyboard but every once in a while.

No, I regret that the debt is all too real.

Interesting that you mention the linear switch. This has been in the back of my mind for some time. For me, the click in the Cherry blue is rather beside the point for a couple of reasons. First, because I bottom out with every stroke, for me the click is the clack and I do not even hear the faint click of the Cherry switch. Second, it seems to me that the click in the Cherry blue does not coincide exactly with the actuation point.

Perhaps I should split the difference and try Cherry brown switches, to get an actuation "bump" without an audible click. However, the actuation force is rather low, about 45 cN.

Enter Cherry black switches, with an actuation force of 60 cN, the same as the Matias switch, and in the lower range of the buckling spring.

It is perhaps noteworthy that Deck keyboards use Cherry clear or black switches, and DSI makes a Mac keyboard that comes only with Cherry red switches.

It is unfortunate that it is not as easy to change switches in a keyboard as it is to change keycaps! If I now start over and get non-click switches in all the keyboards I have been testing, my debt will be worse than real. It will be surreal.

Muirium wrote: But it's hard to gain traction when you have a firmly established rival like Cherry to face, with a version of their product tailored for almost every customer.

Every customer except typists, IMO. Their only medium-weight tactile switch happens to make a horrendous sound, as if trying to puncture the noise of a sales or factory floor (which is probably the enviroment Cherry had foremost in mind when it designed MX switches in days of yore).

The meta description at the top of their English keyboard page starts with this:

"CHERRY computer keyboards for POS, security and high-performance applications, including integrated MSR, smartcard, biometric fingerprint reader, point-of-sale, magstripe reader, FIPS201, Real ID, EAL 3+ common criteria certified for PKI, PCSC/EMV, relegendable, programmable, UPOS and OPOS.".

So at most we might add "gamers" to that list of customers they care about if we interpret "high performance" broadly.

Here are the keywords for the Cherry Corp. keyboard page:

"switches, switch, sensors, sensor, keyboards, keyboard,
controls, automotive, modules, computer, POS, point-of-sale, USB, biometric, finger-print,
smart card reader, magnetic stripe, input devices, mouse, mice, snap-action, rocker,
keyswitches, thumbwheel, interlock, push button, push-button, miniature, subminiature,
sub-miniature, sealed, lighted, magnetic, proximity, speed, direction, digital vane,
seat belt assembly, cruise control, air bag sensor, door panel, window, lock, seat,
design, manufacture, manufacturing"

They have an "office afterthought" button you can click on, which leads us to a selection of keyboards with exactly one MX model: It has blue switches. They know the browns are too light to be ergonomic, so they toss blue switches at the undeserving ears of me and thee.

They don't push clears because those are intended for spacebars, and obviously they don't have an ErgoClear.

Cherry are not into typists: Secretaries, lawyers, coders, analysts, writers, bloggers, students, editors, journalists, marketers, service reps, managers or anyone who responds to more than 30 emails each day. They like POS, manufacturing and cars. Their switches are made to withstand punishment and every other criteria is a distant seccond or third.

The Cherry MX fanbase remind me of... a cargo cult.

Burz wrote:

Muirium wrote: But it's hard to gain traction when you have a firmly established rival like Cherry to face, with a version of their product tailored for almost every customer.

Every customer except typists, IMO. Their only medium-weight tactile switch happens to make a horrendous sound, as if trying to puncture the noise of a sales or factory floor (which is probably the enviroment Cherry had foremost in mind when it designed MX switches in days of yore).

The meta description at the top of their English keyboard page starts with this:

"CHERRY computer keyboards for POS, security and high-performance applications, including integrated MSR, smartcard, biometric fingerprint reader, point-of-sale, magstripe reader, FIPS201, Real ID, EAL 3+ common criteria certified for PKI, PCSC/EMV, relegendable, programmable, UPOS and OPOS.".

So at most we might add "gamers" to that list of customers they care about if we interpret "high performance" broadly.

Here are the keywords for the Cherry Corp. keyboard page:

"switches, switch, sensors, sensor, keyboards, keyboard,
controls, automotive, modules, computer, POS, point-of-sale, USB, biometric, finger-print,
smart card reader, magnetic stripe, input devices, mouse, mice, snap-action, rocker,
keyswitches, thumbwheel, interlock, push button, push-button, miniature, subminiature,
sub-miniature, sealed, lighted, magnetic, proximity, speed, direction, digital vane,
seat belt assembly, cruise control, air bag sensor, door panel, window, lock, seat,
design, manufacture, manufacturing"

They have an "office afterthought" button you can click on, which leads us to a selection of keyboards with exactly one MX model: It has blue switches. They know the browns are too light to be ergonomic, so they toss blue switches at the undeserving ears of me and thee.

They don't push clears because those are intended for spacebars, and obviously they don't have an ErgoClear.

Cherry are not into typists: Secretaries, lawyers, coders, analysts, writers, bloggers, students, editors, journalists, marketers, service reps, managers or anyone who responds to more than 30 emails each day. They like POS, manufacturing and cars. Their switches are made to withstand punishment and every other criteria is a distant seccond or third.

The Cherry MX fanbase remind me of... a cargo cult.

Interesting observations and viewpoint.

During the past few months, I have tried IBM buckling springs, Matias tactile/click, Topre, and Cherry mx brown, blue, black, white, and green.

From my own experience, my favorite switches for typing are Topre ~ IBM buckling spring > Matias >> Cherry.

Based on my research, but no experience as yet, I think that I might like Topre 55 gram and Cherry mx clear for typing.

For now, I have settled on the HHKB Pro 2 as my daily driver. It has 45-gram Topres, and I would like to see PFU introduce a 55-gram Topre option if/when they come out with the HHKB Pro 3.

Cargo cult? Interesting. The advantage of Cherry switches is that they're readily available, in both keyboards and in packing containers.

Buckling spring is of limited usefulness as it's not a discrete switch and only available by gutting Model Ms. (And the Model F, but then you need to a capacitive controller.) Topre has the same problem: neither discrete, nor pollable (again, you need a capacitive controller).

SMK switches were very nice, but they're extinct. Alps clones are only just beginning to be understood, and nobody has enough experience with the different clone brands to know who to trust to supply discrete switches. Futaba switches: mostly extinct. Any other switch with any real value: extinct.

I'm not 100% sure why Fuhua switches were not being used by hobbyists. They were essentially the only alternative to Cherry.

What's interesting about Matias is that it's a new switch from an English-speaking manufacturer. Dealing with Taiwanese/Chinese switch manufacturers in English is quite painful, and not viable for any serious business regarding switch customisation (such as Ducky's custom batches of Xiang Min switches).

Cherry MX switches are also virtually immune to binding: they feel the same no matter where you hit a key, or what angle. SMK cannot deliver that, nor could Alps.

Several community members have new switch designs in the works; how long before these go into trial manufacturing runs, I have no idea. Commercial viability? Again, no idea. The Matias switch is now a year old, and there are no signs of any other keyboard vendors going for them. I was hoping for a resurrection of the Filco Zero, with Matias switches. Diatec are well aware of the switches, so where's my Matias switch Zero? Maybe other companies are waiting for the switches to demonstrate their own longevity? Certainly when the MX first came out, everyone jumped on it. Sadly, interest in new mechanical switches has gone the same way as most of the switches.

Even my contact at Chicony preferred their old mechanical keyboards, but considers the mechanical keyboard market to be so minuscule compared to their turnover in conventional keyboards, that he believes that Chicony will never again make a mechanical keyboard.

It's a difficult situation. I still consider Cherry MX brown to be a nice switch, but it's just a bit light. Ergo clear sounds the way to go, but even in the community we're not satisfied that they work properly! Too many concerns about the spring being too light compared to the size of the tactile ramp, risking a jammed switch. Cherry can't even keep up with the demand for the switches in their catalogue at the moment — maybe one day they'll get chance to perform a stringent technical analysis on ergo clear and find some parameters that are guaranteed to work properly. At the moment, they seem to be having too many issues getting blues and greens to work reliably :P

Cargo cults tried to summon gifts from the sky (western airdrops in World War 2) by imitating what they saw foreigners do on their Pacific islands. Clearly the keyboard community needs more coconut headphones!

I'm not much of a Cherry fan myself. Buckling spring and Topre are both better switches, in my opinion. But Cherry MX is quite decent, especially for off axis presses as Daniel said, and has several things going for it. I can order them up whenever I want. I can choose from a fair selection of them, more complete than anyone else has ever offered. And they're compatible with all the best caps. Added all together, that's huge.

If I were into tactile switches, I'd probably be more grumpy too. MX's tactile bump is not the nicest out there by a long stretch, even on the off chance that brown or clear is perfectly weighted to your taste. But the clickys click quite nicely, and the linears are solid performers built to handle worse than I'll ever throw at them. All in all we could do much worse.

Muirium wrote:Cargo cults tried to summon gifts from the sky (western airdrops in World War 2) by imitating what they saw foreigners do on their Pacific islands. Clearly the keyboard community needs more coconut headphones!

I'm not much of a Cherry fan myself. Buckling spring and Topre are both better switches, in my opinion. But Cherry MX is quite decent, especially for off axis presses as Daniel said, and has several things going for it. I can order them up whenever I want. I can choose from a fair selection of them, more complete than anyone else has ever offered. And they're compatible with all the best caps. Added all together, that's huge.

If I were into tactile switches, I'd probably be more grumpy too. MX's tactile bump is not the nicest out there by a long stretch, even on the off chance that brown or clear is perfectly weighted to your taste. But the clickys click quite nicely, and the linears are solid performers built to handle worse than I'll ever throw at them. All in all we could do much worse.

Mu, you are quite charitable with respect to Cherry and its switches, and such tolerance is one of your many admirable traits. However, I am sure we can all think of examples of products whereby ease of ordering, a large selection, and widespread compatibility do not necessarily coincide with high quality.

Moreover, regarding the specific point about clickiness, I find that the audible click of a Cherry mx blue or green is a faint whisper compared to an IBM buckling spring or Matias tactile/clicky switch.

On the other hand, your point about linear Cherry mx switches is well taken. For example, the fact that mx black switches are used in point of sale keyboards is an indication that they can withstand the punishment meted out by cashiers relentlessly ringing up sales, unwittingly pursuing the 50 million keystroke mark.

I do quite like the sound of blues and greens. Sharp and high. I also like their higher activation point over buckling spring. They're more tactile than the almost-linear feel of IBM's finest, but tactility is Cherry's weakest point for me. It's a nasty bump. And I must admit I don't like browns or clears much at all. Matias is much more compelling there.

Muirium wrote:I do quite like the sound of blues and greens. Sharp and high. I also like their higher activation point over buckling spring. They're more tactile than the almost-linear feel of IBM's finest, but tactility is Cherry's weakest point for me. It's a nasty bump. And I must admit I don't like browns or clears much at all. Matias is much more compelling there.

Interesting how different people describe the sensation of typing on a given switch! I had to go to my other bench where my SSK is sitting to refresh my memory of how the buckling spring feels. However, you are using a Model F if I am not mistaken, and I suppose this feels and sounds rather different from a Model M or Model M SSK. At any rate, to me, the buckling springs in my SSK have a definite tactile actuation point that coincides with the audible click. As I recall from my Cherry mx blues and greens, neither the tactile bump nor the audible click were as pronounced as with IBM buckling springs. Moreover, I found it disconcerting that with Cherry mx blues and greens, the tactile bump did not occur at the same point as the audible click. Furthermore, I no longer like the sound of blues or greens -- they sound raspy and brittle to me.

It has been a while since testing the Matias tactile/click switches, but my recollection is that both the tactile bump and the audible click were much more pronounced than with Cherry mx blues or greens. In fact, the audible click of the Matias switches was too noisy for me, even though I am accustomed to the click, clack, and rattle of IBM buckling springs.

All this is becoming moot for me, as I am enjoying the sound and feel of the Topre switches in my HHKB Pro 2 more each day. Thock thock!

Muirium wrote:Cargo cults tried to summon gifts from the sky (western airdrops in World War 2) by imitating what they saw foreigners do on their Pacific islands. Clearly the keyboard community needs more coconut headphones!

The Cherry cult try to summon a good typing experience from Cherry's 'rainbow' of colors in the sky. I think my previous message explains why packs of these followers keep discovering the rainbow and then proceed to reproduce conversations ad infinitum about their next switch-color conquest or modification in hopes of addressing the "something" that's still missing.

They stick with Cherry partly because of the momentum imparted by gaming with linear switches... yet 80% of the conversations on GH seem to be related to trying to get a good typing experience on MX switches.

Daniel wrote:SMK switches were very nice, but they're extinct. Alps clones are only just beginning to be understood, and nobody has enough experience with the different clone brands to know who to trust to supply discrete switches. Futaba switches: mostly extinct. Any other switch with any real value: extinct.

I suppose if several of these switch types get resurrected then we'll know that 3D printers really have started a revolution.

I'm not 100% sure why Fuhua switches were not being used by hobbyists. They were essentially the only alternative to Cherry.

Matias liked them; now they have improved models (as I sit here typing on the quiet ones). I think any quality switch manufacturer that offered a "spectrum" of models that included a selection of linears could grab a large chunk of the enthusiast market away from Cherry. I once suggested to Edgar Matias that he offer a linear switch to bolster the penetration of the existing ones but he didn't like the idea.

I also wonder what the response would be if Matias pursued an "ALPS rainbow" resurrection project, starting with the blue CM.

Burz wrote:The Cherry cult try to summon a good typing experience from Cherry's 'rainbow' of colors in the sky. I think my previous message explains why packs of these followers keep discovering the rainbow and then proceed to reproduce conversations ad infinitum about their next switch-color conquest or modification in hopes of addressing the "something" that's still missing.

Ah, I see where you're coming from now. Switch modding may seem a bit superfluous, and switch modding in a switch monoculture may seem even more so, but even if we lived in an Alps world or, even better, an Alps and Cherry world where both had 50% of the scene, I dare say that switch modding would still be alive and well. Those shells open up, the parts are interchangeable, and we are nerds. It's all quite inevitable that we will play! A better keyfeel is our natural excuse, but don't let that fool you. Tinkerers just wanna have fun.

That said, I can't be arsed with it myself. I'm more into classic switches in their natural environment. (With a bit of custom keyboard building on the side, which is where I use MX.)

rjrich wrote: Interesting how different people describe the sensation of typing on a given switch! I had to go to my other bench where my SSK is sitting to refresh my memory of how the buckling spring feels. However, you are using a Model F if I am not mistaken, and I suppose this feels and sounds rather different from a Model M or Model M SSK. At any rate, to me, the buckling springs in my SSK have a definite tactile actuation point that coincides with the audible click. As I recall from my Cherry mx blues and greens, neither the tactile bump nor the audible click were as pronounced as with IBM buckling springs. Moreover, I found it disconcerting that with Cherry mx blues and greens, the tactile bump did not occur at the same point as the audible click. Furthermore, I no longer like the sound of blues or greens -- they sound raspy and brittle to me.

I use Model F and Model M buckling springs pretty equally now. They both have a lot of linear in them. What I mean is the long, smooth buildup to the actuation point, which lies so far down the stroke. When tactility does strike, it's the sudden snap of the buckling spring: a pleasant feeling but a narrow one compared to the bump I feel in Cherry's tactile and clicky switches, and of course both Matias. Buckling spring, to me, is a long linear throw with a sudden sharp click. I like its smoothness, and the feel of the tactile event itself, though I'd really like to try it further up the stroke at some point. Buckling springs takes a lot of travel.

Topre has two advantages over buckling spring, for me. First is its much higher activation point. I really like that. Higher even than Cherry and Matias. Second is the length and smoothness of its tactile event. Topre and buckling spring are almost polar opposites in that they both achieve the same thing: a smooth and artfully tactile switch, by very different means. Topre's tactility is drawn out, and indeed plots as an S-curve, while IBM's is instantaneous. It's notable that both you and I (and many more besides) find these two highly contrasting switches our joint favourites. Perhaps it's evidence for an unhappy medium, inside of which the tactile MX switches sit!

My favourite keyfeel of any switch, by the way, is beam spring: buckling spring's ancestor. I've only ever tried one keyboard, and I'm yet to grab one of my own. But it's a gorgeous switch. Later buckling springs feel brash in comparison. Beam spring has a swing and smoothness to it in the pre-activation portion of the stroke which reminds me all the more of Topre, yet its tactility is as sharp as later buckling spring, only quieter. It's one you have to try to really know. Fortunately Xwhatsit and others are opening them up to modern computers at last so it's something of a beamspring summer of late. Add the spherical caps they routinely wear, and they're a fabulous keyboard.

Burz wrote:I once suggested to Edgar Matias that he offer a linear switch to bolster the penetration of the existing ones but he didn't like the idea.

Strange — I made the same suggestion to him, and he thought it was a good idea. The problem is that there is still nothing in the Matias switch range to rival MX red. The Matias switch range cannot replace Cherry MX at this point, for that reason. Linear isn't exactly hard to achieve: just leave out the click/tactile leaf. Doing that on blue Alps gives you a very soft switch, too — a keyboard of those would make the low-force lovers very happy.

Matias switches also need to be branded, for positive recognition.

Muirium wrote: ...
My favourite keyfeel of any switch, by the way, is beam spring: buckling spring's ancestor. I've only ever tried one keyboard, and I'm yet to grab one of my own. But it's a gorgeous switch. Later buckling springs feel brash in comparison. Beam spring has a swing and smoothness to it in the pre-activation portion of the stroke which reminds me all the more of Topre, yet its tactility is as sharp as later buckling spring, only quieter. It's one you have to try to really know. Fortunately Xwhatsit and others are opening them up to modern computers at last so it's something of a beamspring summer of late. Add the spherical caps they routinely wear, and they're a fabulous keyboard.

Thanks for your excellent description of the action of various switch types. What did you mean by your last sentence above? Where could I find a beamspring if I wanted to find one? Don't worry that you have set me off on another buying spree; I am just curious to try the switch for myself to get a better idea of what you are talking about.

See the wiki for the Beamspring keyboards.
Xwhatsit's controller work for the 5251 and 3278 and 3727 (I believe).
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/beam ... t6044.html

The 5251 on ebay is listed for twice the price (currently $189) it was listed a few months ago.

If you happen to be in Wisconsin US you can try my 5251.

Link to video of typing sound
http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8 ... t6592.html