deskthority

mechanical keyboard authority
https://www.deskthority.net/

Data General Dasher replica

https://www.deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=10628

Page 2 of 6

Posted: 14 May 2015, 23:52
by facetsesame
Some good news, I got in touch with the blogger with the Novas and am going to send him some blue colour chips.


Not so good about the SS profile, I asked SP in February "what would it take to get the tooling back into use?":
Melissa wrote:A couple things, the SS family was never tooled to be compatible with the
Cherry switch and the tooling is in poor condition and not worth the
investment in time or money to get it production ready again.
Sorry!
The SA caps are a good thickness, they could arguably be thicker but I'd say they're plenty sturdy as they are - they certainly don't flex anywhere as easily as DCS caps when firmly gripped. DCS might well benefit from retooling for thicker caps, but it'd be a big investment. Also it's not relevant to the caps we are planning here :P

Re: Data General Dasher replica

Posted: 15 May 2015, 20:43
by SL89
All of that is good to know.

Posted: 15 May 2015, 20:46
by XMIT
Extremely thick double shots - I'm thinking old school Futaba linear and Micro Switch Hall Effect key caps here - wouldn't work with Cherry MX as much of the switch body needs to fit inside the key cap when depressed. Sure, with step adapters to lift the keys up, they would work, but this would only amplify key wobble.

Posted: 15 May 2015, 20:51
by Muirium
Correct. SA's pretty decent as is. MX puts a lot of constraints on the cap mount compared to many classic stems. Including bulging. Alps for instance lets the switch slider bulge instead… not good!

Posted: 23 May 2015, 22:18
by facetsesame
Key comparison matrix
Last updated 2015-05-23

No data for TP2 printing terminal
Duplicated RPT and REPT (how apt!) on D100/D200 probably incorrect

Code: Select all

|Colour|Row|Width   |Height|Legend 1   |Legend 2|TP1|TP2|D1|D2|D100|D200|ANSI125|UKISO125|

Code: Select all

|Colour|Row|Width   |Height|Legend 1   |Legend 2|TP1|TP2|D1|D2|D100|D200|ANSI125|UKISO125|
|      |   |        |      |           |        |   |   |  |  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|1          |!       |  1|   | 1| 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|2          |@       |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|        |
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|2          |“       |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |       1|
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|3          |#       |  1|   | 1| 1|   1|   1|      1|        |
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|3          |£       |   |   |  |  |    |    |       |       1|
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|4          |$       |  1|   | 1| 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|5          |%       |  1|   | 1| 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|6          |^       |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|6          |&       |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|7          |&       |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
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|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|0          |)       |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|0          |(none)  |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|-          |_       |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|=          |+       |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
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|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|:          |*       |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|-          |=       |   |   | 1|  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|\          ||       |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|`          |¬       |   |   |  |  |    |    |       |       1|
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|7          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|   1|   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|8          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|9          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|   1|   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  1|       1|     1|8          |↑       |   |   |  |  |   1|    |       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|Q          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|W          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|E          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|R          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|T          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|Y          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
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|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|W          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|E          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|R          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|T          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|Y          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|U          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|I          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
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|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|P          |@       |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|4          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|5          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|6          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|4          |←       |   |   |  |  |   1|    |       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|5          |HOME    |   |   |  |  |   1|    |       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|6          |→       |   |   |  |  |   1|    |       |        |
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|7          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|8          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|9          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Dark  |  2|       1|     1|↑          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  2|     1.5|     1|\          ||       |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|A          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|S          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|D          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|F          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|G          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|H          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|J          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|K          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|L          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|;          |:       |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
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|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|{          |}       |  1|   |  | 1|    |    |       |        |
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|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|#          |~       |   |   |  |  |    |    |       |       1|
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|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|S          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|D          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|F          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|G          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|H          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|J          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|K          |[       |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
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|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|;          |+       |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|1          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|   1|   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|2          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|3          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|   1|   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|2          |↓       |   |   |  |  |   1|    |       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|4          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|5          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|6          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|←          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|→          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  3|       1|     1|HOME       |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|Z          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|X          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|C          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|V          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|B          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|N          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|M          |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
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|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|X          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|C          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|V          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|B          |(blank) |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|N          |↑       |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|M          |]       |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|.          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |    |       |        |
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|↓          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |   1|       |        |
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|1          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|2          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Dark  |  4|       1|     1|3          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Dark  |  4|       2|     1|0          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Dark  |  4|    6.25|     1|(blank)    |(blank) |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Dark  |  4|       8|     1|(blank)    |(blank) |  1|   | 1| 1|   1|   1|       |        |
|Light |  1|       1|     1|(blank)    |(blank) |   |   | 8|11|    |  15|     12|      12|
|Light |  1|       1|     1|TAB        |(none)  |  1|   | 1| 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  1|       1|     1|BS         |(none)  |  1|   |  |  |    |    |       |        |
|Light |  1|       1|     1|BRK        |(none)  |  1|   |  |  |    |    |       |        |
|Light |  1|       1|     1|DEL        |(none)  |   |   |  | 1|   1|   1|       |        |
|Light |  1|       1|     1|ESC        |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Light |  1|       1|     1|ERASE PAGE |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |   1|       |        |
|Light |  1|       1|     1|ERASE EOL  |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |   1|       |        |
|Light |  1|       1|     1|BREAK      |(none)  |   |   | 1|  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  1|       1|     1|PRINT      |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |   1|      1|       1|
|Light |  1|       1|     1|NUMBER LOCK|(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  1|       1|     1|SCROLL LOCK|(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  1|       1|     1|INSERT     |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  1|       1|     1|HOME       |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  1|       1|     1|PAGE UP    |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  1|       1|     1|-          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Light |  1|       1|     1|*          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  1|       1|     1|/          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  1|       2|     1|BACK SPACE |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  2|       1|     1|ESC        |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  2|       1|     1|C1         |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |   1|       |        |
|Light |  2|       1|     1|C2         |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |   1|       |        |
|Light |  2|       1|     1|CR         |(none)  |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Light |  2|       1|     1|DELETE     |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  2|       1|     1|END        |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  2|       1|     1|PAGE DOWN  |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  2|       1|     1|PRINT      |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  2|       1|     1|↑          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  2|       1|     1|,          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|       |        |
|Light |  2|       1|     1|(blank)    |(blank) |   |   | 1| 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  2|    1.25|     1|BS         |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|       |        |
|Light |  2|     1.5|     1|ESC        |(none)  |  1|   |  |  |    |    |       |        |
|Light |  2|     1.5|     1|NEW LINE   |(none)  |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Light |  2|     1.5|     1|RETURN     |(none)  |   |   |  | 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  2|     1.5|     1|TAB        |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Light |  2|       2|     1|RETURN     |(none)  |  1|   |  |  |    |    |       |        |
|Light |  3|       1|     1|CTRL       |(none)  |  1|   | 1| 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  3|       1|     1|HOME       |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  3|       1|     1|RUB OUT    |(none)  |   |   | 1|  |    |    |       |        |
|Light |  3|       1|     1|REPT       |(none)  |   |   | 1|  |   1|   1|       |        |
|Light |  3|       1|     1|↑          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  3|       1|     1|←          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  3|       1|     1|→          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  3|       1|     1|LF         |(none)  |  1|   |  |  |    |    |       |        |
|Light |  3|       1|     1|DEL        |(none)  |  1|   |  |  |    |    |       |        |
|Light |  3|       1|     1|ALPHA LOCK |(none)  |  1|   |  | 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  3|    1.25|     1|CR         |(none)  |   |   |  | 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  3|     1.5|     1|CTRL       |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|       |        |
|Light |  3|    1.75|     1|ALPHA LOCK |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  3|    2.25|     1|NEW LINE   |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|        |
|Light |  4|       1|     1|BREAK      |(none)  |   |   |  | 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  4|       1|     1|C3         |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |   1|       |        |
|Light |  4|       1|     1|C4         |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |   1|       |        |
|Light |  4|       1|     1|RPT        |(none)  |  1|   |  |  |    |    |       |        |
|Light |  4|       1|     1|←          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  4|       1|     1|→          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  4|       1|     1|↓          |(none)  |   |   | 1| 1|    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  4|       1|     1|.          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|      1|       1|
|Light |  4|    1.25|     1|ALT        |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      2|       1|
|Light |  4|    1.25|     1|ALT GR     |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |       |       1|
|Light |  4|    1.25|     1|CTRL       |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      2|       2|
|Light |  4|    1.25|     1|DG         |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  4|    1.25|     1|FUN        |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  4|    1.25|     1|MENU       |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |  4|    1.25|     1|SHIFT      |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |       |       1|
|Light |  4|     1.5|     1|REPT       |(none)  |   |   |  | 1|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  4|     1.5|     1|ALPHA LOCK |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|       |        |
|Light |  4|     1.5|     1|ON LINE    |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|       |        |
|Light |  4|     1.5|     1|RPT        |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|       |        |
|Light |  4|     1.5|     1|SHIFT      |(none)  |  1|   | 2| 2|    |    |       |        |
|Light |  4|    1.75|     1|SHIFT      |(none)  |  1|   |  |  |    |    |       |        |
|Light |  4|       2|     1|SHIFT      |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   2|   2|       |        |
|Light |  4|    2.25|     1|SHIFT      |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|        |
|Light |  4|    2.75|     1|SHIFT      |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |3/2|       1|     2|+          |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |      1|       1|
|Light |3/2|1.25/1.5|     2|NEW LINE   |(none)  |   |   |  |  |    |    |       |       1|
|Light |3/2|  2/1.25|     2|NEW LINE   |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|       |        |
|Light |4/3|       1|     2|ENTER      |(none)  |   |   |  |  |   1|   1|      1|       1|
|      |   |        |      |           |        |   |   |  |  |    |    |       |        |
|      |   |        |      |TOTAL KEYS |        | 60|  0|81|90|  74| 101|    104|     105|

Posted: 23 May 2015, 22:25
by facetsesame
Possible implementation for standard keyboards
Still using BBJ (mods), BE (alphas), BFU (background)

ANSI 104
ANSI104_mock_2015-05-23.png
ANSI104_mock_2015-05-23.png (72.28 KiB) Viewed 6933 times
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

{backcolor:"#00234e"},
[{c:"#008fb0",t:"#e5e4df",p:"SA",a:7},"ESC",{x:1,t:"#212224"},"\n\n\n\nF1","\n\n\n\nF2","\n\n\n\nF3","\n\n\n\nF4",{x:0.5},"\n\n\n\nF5","\n\n\n\nF6","\n\n\n\nF7","\n\n\n\nF8",

{x:0.5},"\n\n\n\nF9","\n\n\n\nF10","\n\n\n\nF11","\n\n\n\nF12",{x:0.5,t:"#e5e4df"},"PRINT",{f:2},"SCROLL LOCK",{f:3},"BREAK"],
[{y:0.5,c:"#006f9a",a:5,f:5},"~\n`","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{c:"#008fb0",a:7,f:3,w:2},"BACK SPACE",{x:0.5},"INSERT","HOME","PAGE UP",

{x:0.5,f:2},"NUMBER LOCK",{f:7},"/","*","-"],
[{f:3,w:1.5},"TAB",{c:"#006f9a",f:9},"Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P",{a:5,f:5},"{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"|\n\\",{x:0.5,c:"#008fb0",a:7,f:2},"DELETE",{f:3},"END","PAGE DOWN",

{x:0.5,c:"#006f9a",f:9},"7","8\n\n\n\n↑","9",{c:"#008fb0",f:7,h:2},"+"],
[{f:3,w:1.25,w2:1.5,x2:0.25,l:true},"ALPHA LOCK",{x:0.5,c:"#006f9a",f:9},"A","S","D","F","G\n\n\n\nBEL","H","J","K","L",{a:5,f:5},":\n;","\"\n'",{c:"#008fb0",a:7,f:3,w:2.25},"NEW LINE",

{x:4,c:"#006f9a",f:9},"4\n\n\n\n←","5","6\n\n\n\n→"],
[{c:"#008fb0",f:3,w:2.25},"SHIFT",{c:"#006f9a",f:9},"Z","X","C","V","B","N","M",{a:5,f:5},"<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{c:"#008fb0",a:7,f:3,w:2.75},"SHIFT",{x:1.5,f:7},"↑",{x:1.5,c:"#006f9a",f:9},"1","2

\n\n\n\n↓","3",{c:"#008fb0",f:3,h:2},"ENTER"],
[{w:1.25},"CTRL",{w:1.25},"DG",{w:1.25},"ALT",{c:"#006f9a",f:7,w:6.25},"",{c:"#008fb0",f:3,w:1.25},"ALT",{w:1.25},"FUN",{w:1.25},"MENU",{w:1.25},"CTRL",{x:0.5,f:7},"←","↓","→",

{x:0.5,c:"#006f9a",f:9,w:2},"0",{f:7},"."]
UK ISO 105
UKISO105_mock_2015-05-23.png
UKISO105_mock_2015-05-23.png (71.84 KiB) Viewed 6933 times
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

{backcolor:"#00234e"},
[{c:"#008fb0",t:"#e5e4df",p:"SA",a:7},"ESC",{x:1,t:"#212224",f:7},"\n\n\n\nF1","\n\n\n\nF2","\n\n\n\nF3","\n\n\n\nF4",{x:0.5},"\n\n\n\nF5","\n\n\n\nF6","\n\n\n\nF7","\n\n\n\nF8",

{x:0.5},"\n\n\n\nF9","\n\n\n\nF10","\n\n\n\nF11","\n\n\n\nF12",{x:0.5,t:"#e5e4df",f:3},"PRINT",{f:2},"SCROLL LOCK",{f:3},"BREAK"],
[{y:0.5,c:"#006f9a",a:5,f:5},"¬ ¦\n`","!\n1","\"\n2","£\n3","$\n4 €","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=",{c:"#008fb0",a:7,f:3,w:2},"BACK SPACE",{x:0.5},"INSERT","HOME","PAGE 

UP",{x:0.5,f:2},"NUMBER LOCK",{f:7},"/","*","-"],
[{f:3,w:1.5},"TAB",{c:"#006f9a",f:9},"Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P",{a:5,f:5},"{\n[","}\n]",{x:0.25,c:"#008fb0",f:3,w:1.25,h:2,w2:1.5,h2:1,x2:-0.25},"\n\n\n\n\n\nNEW LINE",

{x:0.5,a:7,f:2},"DELETE",{f:3},"END","PAGE DOWN",{x:0.5,c:"#006f9a",f:9},"7","8\n\n\n\n↑","9",{c:"#008fb0",f:7,h:2},"+"],
[{f:3,w:1.25,w2:1.5,x2:0.25,l:true},"ALPHA LOCK",{x:0.5,c:"#006f9a",f:9},"A","S","D","F","G\n\n\n\nBEL","H","J","K","L",{a:5,f:5},":\n;",{f:3,f2:5},"@\n'",{f2:3},"~\n#",{x:5.25,a:7,f:9},"4\n\n\n\n

←","5","6\n\n\n\n→"],
[{c:"#008fb0",f:3,w:1.25},"SHIFT",{c:"#006f9a",a:5},"|\n\\",{a:7,f:9},"Z","X","C","V","B","N","M",{a:5,f:5},"<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{c:"#008fb0",a:7,f:3,w:2.75},"SHIFT",{x:1.5,f:7},"↑",

{x:1.5,c:"#006f9a",f:9},"1","2\n\n\n\n↓","3",{c:"#008fb0",f:3,h:2},"ENTER"],
[{w:1.25},"CTRL",{w:1.25},"DG",{w:1.25},"ALT",{c:"#006f9a",f:7,w:6.25},"",{c:"#008fb0",f:3,w:1.25},"ALT",{w:1.25},"FUN",{w:1.25},"MENU",{w:1.25},"CTRL",{x:0.5,f:7},"←","↓","→",

{x:0.5,c:"#006f9a",f:9,w:2},"0",{f:7},"."]

Re: Data General Dasher replica

Posted: 23 May 2015, 22:26
by SL89
I'm on mobile. What does all of this mean.

Posted: 23 May 2015, 22:38
by chzel
It means Data Dasher goodness!
Mockups.

Posted: 23 May 2015, 22:47
by SL89
Just saw it. KILLER! I like these.

Do the various Dasher models have keys unique, specifically to the blue sets. A la RUBOUT, XMIT and its ilk.

Posted: 24 May 2015, 23:32
by facetsesame
Haha, sorry guys! I posted the data but didn't get to make the explanatory follow-up.

The key matrix is for reference, to try to get a picture of the variations and how well these could fit to a typical modern layout. The D100/D200 alphas are almost exactly the same as ANSI, so with careful selection it would realistic to create a mod pack or two allow direct replication of their original key layout.

The D100 and D200 (with the curvier cases) were succeeded by the D410 / D460 in the white 'n' browny beige era.
While the tech, design and colours were a big change, the layout is only a slight extension from its predecessor:
They've added five more keys on the right, and split the "big-ass enter" in two.
Image
D410/D460 keyboard (Source - thanks XMIT!)

Image
D200 keyboard layout work in progress (see Dasher terminal layouts for Keyboard Layout Editor)

It feels like a 4.5 row implementation of a hybrid of ANSI, with 122 style cursor, and most interestingly an extra column on the right of the main alpha block. It doesn't take too much imagination to reach a 104 ANSI layout:
Image (ANSI 104 idea from possible implementation post)

So, suppose the D200 had the space bar row fully populated for the nav and numeric pads, and an extra mod or three beside the space bar, while keeping that distinctive tapering towards space the alpha block has. Perhaps we chuck in the extra five function keys of the D410/D460, or perhaps we leave them out. This would make a big keyboard I could be very happy with.
Dasher_D200_layout_additional_keys_schematic.png
Dasher_D200_layout_additional_keys_schematic.png (9.87 KiB) Viewed 6864 times
Added keys highlighted in orange. Existing space bar mods have been shortened to 1.25 units, and space bar to 7 units.
As for the rest: the cursor and number pad could now also be moved to their normal positions, a 2 unit backspace could be installed, and the "big-ass enter" could be changed for the user's desired alternative.

The question is: if I (we?) go this far for a compromise position, should the further step to a safe, normal 108/9 layout not be taken, allowing greater flexibility and compatibility?

Next week: the TKL option
Spoiler: just chop off the num pad and "F16-F20"

Posted: 25 May 2015, 00:04
by facetsesame
SL89 wrote: Do the various Dasher models have keys unique, specifically to the blue sets. A la RUBOUT, XMIT and its ilk.
Excellent, thanks! Another thing I've been itching to ramble about: legends!

The legends do vary a bit between the models (the key comparison matrix aims to show this in detail); ultimately none are specific to the blue models as the later D410/D460 has a very similar keyboard to the D100/D200 (see previous post). Here's a popularity table (with errors carried forward):

Code: Select all

|Legend    |Popularity|TP1|TP2|D1|D2|D100|D200|
|ALPHA LOCK|         4|  1|  0| 0| 1|   1|   1|
|REPT      |         4|  0|  0| 1| 1|   1|   1|
|BS        |         3|  1|  0| 0| 0|   1|   1|
|ERASE EOL |         3|  0|  0| 1| 1|   0|   1|
|ERASE PAGE|         3|  0|  0| 1| 1|   0|   1|
|NEW LINE  |         3|  0|  0| 1| 0|   1|   1|
|RPT       |         3|  1|  0| 0| 0|   1|   1|
|CR        |         2|  0|  0| 1| 1|   0|   0|
|ON LINE   |         2|  0|  0| 0| 0|   1|   1|
|BRK       |         1|  1|  0| 0| 0|   0|   0|
|C1        |         1|  0|  0| 0| 0|   0|   1|
|C2        |         1|  0|  0| 0| 0|   0|   1|
|C3        |         1|  0|  0| 0| 0|   0|   1|
|C4        |         1|  0|  0| 0| 0|   0|   1|
|LF        |         1|  1|  0| 0| 0|   0|   0|
|RUB OUT   |         1|  0|  0| 1| 0|   0|   0|
ALPHA LOCK was the obvious one to include as this features on most models. The REPEAT keys (in their two variants) do also, but I'm not sure what context this could be used in (though funnily enough this Ducky keyboard has variable repeat delay and rate).
NEW LINE was the other obvious choice - CR is featured independently, as is LF on the printing terminal. RETURN and ENTER are also used though.
I didn't pick up on RUB OUT on the TP1, this could be a backspace legend, or ERASE (from ERASE EOL and ERASE PAGE)
My favourite is ON LINE - this begs to be included but is tricky to place except as a novelty.
As you can imagine, I'm totally up for including some non-authentic legends within this too, XMIT would work well.

Finally, a bit about the side printing: I wanted to invoke the + cursor, and the Ctrl+G BEL on the printing terminal, while keeping the top legends consistent and less cluttered. I thought about adding the VIM arrows too but felt it a step too far (an add on maybe...). As for the F keys, I wanted them to be blank as on the originals, but felt they needed something to compete with the other legended keys on the top row. The labelling in black is a nod to the label panel/overlays on the D200 (also seen on D410/D460) that I wouldn't expect anyone to want (given the lack of popularity of all those paper overlays for dBase and Wordstar, Displaywrite etc that used to be seen on early PC keyboards!) The other option would be to have no legends on the top row - a bit stark perhaps.

Some legend lessons from looking at the D410/460 that should be applied to the 104 recreations:
CMD might be the missing legend I'd read as RPT on the D100/D200;
BS might actually be CR
On the recreations, DELETE ought to be DEL
and SCROLL LOCK might better labelled as SCRLL LOCK or even HOLD
...also, isn't NUMBER LOCK just too wide for a 1 unit key?
Finally, did you spot DG? That probably wouldn't be a text legend ;)

Posted: 25 May 2015, 00:36
by Muirium
Speaking of legends: what's the story with all the custom legends for Symbiosis? It is all doubleshot, right? How much tooling was required?

Image
http://deskthority.net/post231572.html#p231572

I presumed that set was unfeasible for SP to manufacture as designed, and that people would be pissed off to see single legends show up instead. But apparently not! Have they really changed the rules of their game? Can we go wild?

Posted: 25 May 2015, 00:48
by chzel
Most (if not all) of the "custom" legends are normal letters rotated. V T U A E...
So don't go wild just yet!

Posted: 25 May 2015, 00:58
by facetsesame
Yeah, I bet they have the alphabet available at that size, and as we know flips (and seemingly rotates as well) are free.
It's not impossible that they had some of the other legends too - the arrows perhaps? Though the alignment of the J arrow looks terrible! And the infinity sign is too small, etc etc.

In the absence of more visibility of the legend library (could someone visit and document? :D ), getting definitions of the standard alphabet library heights and widths would be useful. That said, we probably have most of them in the Round 5 pics!

edit: The Symbiosis WASD keys I have are all double shot, yes. Presumably the rest are too but I haven't seen them from below. For what it's worth I do also have some Symbiosis macro kits (M1-M12, in WW on BFP they look like UK motorway keys...), also double shot but less ambitious.

I think this might mean we can be a bit more ambitious with the amount of text we cram on keys - for example an ASCII control code set may be achievable with standard tooling. I can't imagine we'll get bulk new tooling for "free" though.

Posted: 25 May 2015, 01:56
by Muirium
facetsesame wrote: It's not impossible that they had some of the other legends too - the arrows perhaps? Though the alignment of the J arrow looks terrible! And the infinity sign is too small, etc etc.
Anyone got photos of these details in action? I don't doubt it's true, I'd just like to see what went wrong.

Posted: 25 May 2015, 02:09
by facetsesame
Muirium wrote: Anyone got photos of these details in action? I don't doubt it's true, I'd just like to see what went wrong.
Sure, this is what I was looking at (from reddit I think, possibly via SL89!):
http://i.imgur.com/g8JV3q3.jpg

Posted: 25 May 2015, 02:54
by Muirium
Hmm…

Image

Those arrow keys are pretty cool. I could see a set marking out the HHKB cursor diamond I like so much. Trouble is that all four arrows share keys double legends anyway: ;:, '" etc.

Re: Data General Dasher replica

Posted: 25 May 2015, 03:44
by SL89
That's not me. I didn't end up getting it. Plus I only rock full size boards ;)

Posted: 25 May 2015, 10:34
by facetsesame
SL89 wrote: That's not me. I didn't end up getting it. Plus I only rock full size boards ;)
Right, sorry, I knew you hadn't got it, but thought you'd posted the link. It was scottc, and from his comments I'm not convinced that's his keyboard either! It seems I wasn't just tired, it doesn't seem to be in too obvious a place on reddit (though my isp's intermittent arbitrary blocking of imgur doesn't make it any easier).
Muirium wrote: Those arrow keys are pretty cool. I could see a set marking out the HHKB cursor diamond I like so much. Trouble is that all four arrows share keys double legends anyway: ;:, '" etc.
In an attempt to shoehorn this back, how about side printed arrows? Would they be cool?

Posted: 25 May 2015, 16:15
by facetsesame
facetsesame wrote: So, suppose the D200 had the space bar row fully populated for the nav and numeric pads, and an extra mod or three beside the space bar, while keeping that distinctive tapering towards space the alpha block has. Perhaps we chuck in the extra five function keys of the D410/D460, or perhaps we leave them out. This would make a big keyboard I could be very happy with.
Image
Added keys highlighted in orange. Existing space bar mods have been shortened to 1.25 units, and space bar to 7 units.
As for the rest: the cursor and number pad could now also be moved to their normal positions, a 2 unit backspace could be installed, and the "big-ass enter" could be changed for the user's desired alternative.

The question is: if I (we?) go this far for a compromise position, should the further step to a safe, normal 108/9 layout not be taken, allowing greater flexibility and compatibility?

Next week: the TKL option
Spoiler: just chop off the num pad and "F16-F20"
If only things were so simple in reality.

It does make a workable ANSI, if some of the key widths are inevitably a bit weird.
01_D410_style_ANSI.png
01_D410_style_ANSI.png (76.73 KiB) Viewed 6780 times
The difficulty comes with ISO: the 1.25 width \| means a narrow enter, and the taper suggests a 1 width left shift key.
02_D410_style_ISO_try1.png
02_D410_style_ISO_try1.png (75.34 KiB) Viewed 6780 times
Using a regular ISO enter results in widening the whole block while offering no help to left shift.
Stepped keys are a poor compromise, offering no extra surface while only hinting at the desired width.
03_D410_style_ISO_try2.png
03_D410_style_ISO_try2.png (76.27 KiB) Viewed 6780 times
So what if we remove the extra column in the alpha block? Does that make things any easier?

Well, no. To keep the space bar mods within the shape, the bar has to shrink to 6.25 (and slip out of alignment...)
04_D410_style_minus1_ANSI.png
04_D410_style_minus1_ANSI.png (73.93 KiB) Viewed 6780 times
And ISO? To keep the shape we'd need a non-inverted T of a key!
05_D410_style_minus1_ISO_try1.png
05_D410_style_minus1_ISO_try1.png (73.72 KiB) Viewed 6780 times
Fitting a regular ISO enter is now unrestricted by that extra column, but the left shift is still less than ideal as a 1u key.
06_D410_style_minus1_ISO_try2.png
06_D410_style_minus1_ISO_try2.png (72.6 KiB) Viewed 6780 times
The thing is, if we sort that out we lose the shape entirely and may as well standardise and tidy up the space bar mods.
07_D410_style_minus1_ISO_try3.png
07_D410_style_minus1_ISO_try3.png (73.15 KiB) Viewed 6780 times
So is this the fate, a POS board type layout?
08_POS_board.png
08_POS_board.png (73 KiB) Viewed 6780 times
Or maybe I should have gone with the MX 8200 layout I first considered in 2013...
Image

Re: Data General Dasher replica

Posted: 25 May 2015, 16:23
by SL89
I like both of the last two options, would the ANSI versions be fundamentally similar.

Posted: 25 May 2015, 21:21
by facetsesame
SL89 wrote: I like both of the last two options, would the ANSI versions be fundamentally similar.
Nah, once you're in to "normal" territory, I don't see much point making any dramatic change.

If the 8200 layout appeals, it makes things a lot easier with the starting point of a ready PCB.
A more sympathetic case might be preferable though - something I'd already thought about with my Round 5 idea.
Image
(source: Reptile on DT in 2012!)
This pic shows the weird measure on many of these of having a "universal" layout with the ANSI left shift and the ISO enter.
Thankfully, they aren't all made like this.

Obligatory mockup...
MX8200_ANSI_mock.png
MX8200_ANSI_mock.png (77 KiB) Viewed 6770 times

Posted: 28 May 2015, 00:05
by facetsesame
Next, I'll try working through some designs starting with the D1/D2 and the TPs.

The TP could be an interesting basis for a 60%, which would also be more economical for a case replica.

With layouts considered, I can then start considering the options for cases - I have something in mind but I can't be sure how feasible until I understand more about the cases would work.

I'm still looking for colour matching data points. Two sets of blue ABS chips came in today:
2015-05-27_SP_ABS_blue_colour_chips.jpg
2015-05-27_SP_ABS_blue_colour_chips.jpg (97.73 KiB) Viewed 6746 times
As bounties seem to be popular, I'm offering one of these free including shipping to anyone who will use them to match cap and plate colours on a not-completely-green Dasher D1/2/100/200 or TP1/2. More incentive may also be available!

Posted: 28 May 2015, 00:07
by SL89
Regarding layout: Let's not put the cart before the horse. Are we thinking of doing a board to go with this and making it what we want from scratch? Or are we just concerning ourselves with caps right now?

Posted: 28 May 2015, 00:39
by facetsesame
Thanks for the pointer. I'm trying to do everything in parallel, as usual - not the best approach.

Caps especially, but maybe a board too.

In detailed ramble: the goal is a replica of sorts - so caps are fundamental to that, but I also want to explore whether the boards themselves can offer inspiration beyond something an existing can deliver - the MX 8200 solution from the D100/D200 approach suggest not for a big keyboard - though I'd like to use the existing guts with a new case ideally.

For a 60% keyboard - something I haven't given in depth consideration of before - I'm intrigued about a somewhat 1u mod led 'board that pays tribute to the TP layout (albeit in a much smaller package). This might also be of wider (different) interest than the huge board I proposed. I've run out of time today though, so that's all for now from me.

Posted: 28 May 2015, 00:54
by SL89
I just wanted to be clear about what we wanted to get done. Thank you for explaining all of that.

Regarding caps: Let's start with the 'core' set. Alphas, numerics, Nav, and numpad. Then worry about things like 60% (or 40%) Focusing on existing paradigms could help us keep constraints on the front end, and then we can custom tailor the set to match the board if / when it is finalized.

Regarding boards: I have to imagine this has a lot of potential options. If we are looking into replica, are we looking to get into handmaking pcbs (with the swoopy circuits) or handwiring? Or maybe we can talk to Matt3o and or 7bit (or anyone else) who has experience making custom pcbs for projects (especially if we plan on making more then just 2 boards.) If we decide to follow the path of existing pcbs and the like maybe you are right and the 8200 looks like a good jumping off point.

I personally like a battleship board myself. But I'd really like the Dasher colorway on anything from a 40% up! I am not as technically minded as you are Facet, nor as experienced, but I want this to happen one way or another. Figuring out goals and possibly milestones could be conducive to getting it all to happen.

Posted: 28 May 2015, 08:23
by pyrelink
I think that it would probably make the most sense to focus on the Keycaps first. I like the concept of the entire replica, but if past group buys have taught us anything, getting the keyset alone produced will be a challenge in itself. I also imagine there will be a lot more interested parties in the Keycaps by themselves. If the rest of the replica is saved for after the Keycaps, it gives people a little time to recover economically from the caps too.

Posted: 28 May 2015, 10:56
by seebart
pyrelink wrote: I also imagine there will be a lot more interested parties in the Keycaps by themselves..
yes, this would be the first retro set that I might not be able to resist. Although matt3o with his SA Retro is tempting me big time...

Posted: 28 May 2015, 13:27
by Muirium
Takes a lot to tempt Seebart!

What physical profile were Dasher keys? I assume we're talking an SA remake, but just out of interest are there good pictures of the originals in detail?

Posted: 28 May 2015, 14:42
by SL89
SA is the default. Unless something else crops up that is appropriate. Ik there was that crazy spherical IC that happened a month or so ago.
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