Oh hai!

[benichka]

Hello everybody

I noticed there is no "present yourself" section, such a shame! So I'm posting here

So, I'm kind of new in the keyboard realm, but I'm not new to mechanicals one!

I have been using a Cherry G80-3000 (black switches) for almost 8 years now, works like a charm! I read at that time that mechanicals one were better in term of feeling, build construction, etc.

Recently I decided to buy a decent keyboard for my home, because obviously the G80 is at work (couldn't bear the shitty one that came with my desktop 5 years ago). So, I had many membrane keyboards at home, even fancy gaming ones, but mainly crappy ones that were sold with a PC "back in the day" (I kept giving away keyboard to people that needed one, and the ones that I estimated good, so I ended up with the most basic / crappy one for me. I even gave my G15 Refresh to my brother for his studies ). Got also 2 / 3 Apple keyboards (used on a PC...), but yeah, compared to the G80, they all were a pain in the ass.

So, when 3 / 4 month before I started to feel pain in my elbow I decided to buy a new fancy one!

I lurked Internet for few weeks and ended up buying a Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with red switches. Almost bought a RealForce 87U black with variable force, but the moment I wanted to confirm the payment it was out of stock...

The problem now is I also want a TKL at work, because it's waaaaay more handy than a fullsize one, especially when you don't use the numpad that much (no way!).

And now that I read quite some discussions, I really want to try buckling springs Apparently it's not that expensive, might buy one not too late...

I am more a lurker than an active member, so you will probably not see me posting that much I am on the IRC channel though...

Basics info about me: I live in Strasbourg (France) since 2009, but I was born in burgundy (yay wine!), currently IT engineer in some big services company... I practice photo as a hobby, will try not to fall for the keycaps collection one!

See you on the forum / IRC

[Muirium]

Hi, welcome to DT: the Retox Clinic for Obsessive Keyboard Collectors! Nice intro. Something tells me you'd better watch for the slippery slope before you wind up with 10 keyboards, each better than the rest, just in different ways. That road is paved with bargains, especially if they're IBMs!


Those aren't mine. They're all Webwit's, the lucky bugger…

Buckling spring (IBM's classic switch family) is quite different to the linear MX black and red switches you're used to. It's just as smooth (I'd say smoother) until SNAP you suddenly feel the key fall away with a loud click. I like them a lot. They are fairly heavy, but in a way that gets easier on your fingers the faster you type with them. Be sure to try them out!

TKLs are my preference, too. In fact the tiny 60% form factor is my favourite, like the HHKB or Kishsaver. Naturally, in the realm of classic boards, the little ones wind up costing extra. IBM's Tenkeyless: the widely sought after Model M SSK (Space Saving Keyboard) costs as much as several full size Model Ms. While the rare as hens teeth "Kishsaver" 60% format IBM Model F is likely worth several more again. I'm pleased to have one of each:

[benichka]

yeah apparently the SSK is around 200€, so I'll probably get a fullsize first to get the idea of bucking springs!

That's a nice collection for Webwit indeed!

I will now enter in hunt mode for a model M / model F

I wanted to test MX blue for a long time just to get the feeling of a clicky switch, I will probably give a try first to the "original" clicky switch

[Muirium]

Full size Model Ms are a good place to start. You'll either love or hate buckling spring. Another IBM option is the Model M's ancestor: Model F. Like many people, I prefer F over M as it's even sharper and the keyboards themselves are proper heavy metal beasts! It also pings like crazy, more to love/hate. In fact, a comparison:

Model M

Model F

A good bargain Model F is the original PC keyboard: the PC/XT. Cindy's selling them for $25 each at the moment… from Texas. I bought an SSK and an AT from her already!



You can find them, and Model Ms, for sale in Europe fairly often too. For something like 50 Euros and upwards.

[Hypersphere]

Starting some years ago with a 101-key IBM Model M, I thought I had discovered the ultimate keyboard. Later, I discovered the TKL variant, the IBM SSK, which was even better because of its form factor. More recently, I discovered (or actually rediscovered) the IBM Model F XT. I got one on eBay for $19 and although it worked just fine, I decided to do a complete refurbishing and conversion to USB (thanks to the many helpful posts here on DT, especially those dealing with Soarer's Converter). Although the IBM AT arguably has the better layout, I find the XT build more solid. I have yet to try the bigger 122-key Model F (or 122-key Model M), but for now, I think the XT is the keyboard to beat, at least among the IBM buckling springs.

Along the way, I've tried many different keyboards with various form factors, layouts, and switch types.

Among switches, I've tried Alps blue, brown, and white; Cherry mx blue, black, brown, clear, green, and red; IBM beam spring; IBM capacitive (Model F) and membrane (Model M) buckling spring; Matias tactile/clicky; NMB "angry bear" tactile and clicky; Topre 45g and 55g; and myriad linear switches on old terminal keyboards.

Out of all this, some favorites have emerged. Primarily from trying the HHKB Pro 2, I find that I like the 60% form factor and I love the HHKB layout; in fact, whenever possible, I reconfigure any other board I use to the HHKB/Mac layout. I also like Topre switches, but I like IBM capacitive buckling springs just as well for different reasons.

Therefore, currently I am rotating among three keyboards: the HHKB Pro 2, Realforce 87u 55g, and IBM XT.

Of course, you have to go with your own preferences. Perhaps the easiest way to start is with an IBM Model M, because it has a standard layout, it works with a modern computer via PS/2 or an active converter such as the "blue cube" or Adesso, and there are still many of them for sale on eBay and elsewhere.

[benichka]

Thanks for those advices!
Yeah the sounds are quite different and the model F does sound really more "metallic"!

Hum, at $50 it's interesting... Hum much cost an adaptater or a converter (I saw that the F need an "active" converter)? I see some stuff at amazon around $10, that's not that expensive...

That point is also why I was looking at the model M: you can plug them in PS/2 natively Plus the layout indeed... The one on the F seems quite odd (that Enter key for instance!).

EDIT : If I understand, there are 2 layouts for the F model: the odd "PC XT" and the more standard "PC AT"?

[macmakkara]

Yeah you should check marketplace and Cindys(elecplus) thread where she is selling lots of old boards. All 25$ ea but conditions vary. And ther from usa so some shipping + customs.
Got my SSK from there. But she has 10+ XT left.

Ooh didin't realize that MU already told that


E: she also has normal model Ms still

[benichka]

Hey!
Yeah I took a quick look at the list you just posted (but on my phone because all the Google stuff, even my emails, are blocked at work ).

Will probably take a closer look at it tonight!

Thank you

[Muirium]

They're a great price. Two downsides though.

First is location. Shipping over to Europe costs quite a bit, and your local customs will be happy to add some more on top. Heavy keyboards like these tend to catch their eye. If you want to grab an M and an XT, it's a good way to go. One keyboard alone is less of a bargain because of all that.

Second is condition. These are used, warehouse stored old boards. They need a good clean at least, and quite often spare parts and restoration. Can't rule out that a Model M would need a "bolt mod": a lengthy procedure where you drill bolts into it to replace the old plastic rivets. Not for the faint hearted!

So it depends on how confident you feel about DIY. If I've just scared you off, there is a legendary SSK restorer on the forum whose work is amazing: Phosphorglow. I want to get one of his SSKs myself, someday. But the price is as you'd expect for that much effort.



My experience is that Model Fs stand up better. If I was taking a shot in the dark, I'd go for one of those. In fact, I already did. This is my haul from Cindy's sale:



That's an AT, the XT's slightly younger brother. Still not a modern layout, but closer!

You're right that Model Fs need adapters. In fact, even Model Ms need either a native PS/2 port or an active converter. The cheap adapters tend to be for modern boards which support both USB and PS/2 internally. These IBMs are a decade older than USB, so won't play well!

[macmakkara]

Im glad that i have native PS/2 port on my "modern" pc Asus P9X79 with intel I7 3930k.

[benichka]

Yeah, ideally I prefer a 100% working keyboard for my first IBM
I'm not afraid to do some kind of DIY, but not really on a first thing like that!

For now I think I'll just read the litterature about the IBM keyboards because it seems there are a LOT of types!

At the moment nothing really interesting on eBay for the Europe, so I'll keep the topic in mind

Also got an PS/2 port in my PC, so that's a plus ^^

Thank you for all those information

[Muirium]

Of course there is the brand new option with buckling springs that I always forget about: Model Ms are still in production, more or less, by Unicomp.

Pros:

• Brand new.
• No assembly / restoration required.
• USB options (actually, I think they are USB only now).
• Optional TrackPoint if you want to go old school ThinkPad style and finger a nipple while keeping your hands on your keyboard! The EnduraPro model is the one for that, and one I'd like to try sometime.
• A few different case styles to choose from.
• Made in the USA, just like many IBMs were.
• Sold with a warranty by a respected store, rather than random ebayers. Should arrive in one piece!

Cons:

• No SSK.
• The quality isn't quite the same overall as an excellent condition IBM original. The caps are still dyesub (good) but the legends are blurry when put side by side with the classics. I hear the typing isn't quite as sharp either. Nothing major, but snobs like us will notice.
• Unicomp's logo is horrendous. They also struggle whenever altering anything IBM gave them. Watch out for ugly bits here and there.
• Expensive. I think the Keyboard Company has exclusive distribution in Europe. Never a good thing for us customers, just check their Topre prices!

I must admit I haven't tried a Unicomp. I got my hands on real IBMs first, and got spoiled by my SSK. The only business Unicomp has had from me so faris for spare parts: very useful! I'm glad they're still around. They're certainly worth considering for your first taste.

[benichka]

Nice to know
But I think it'll be possible to find a good ol' M of F model in a pretty good shape

At a (most) reasonnable price...

[macmakkara]

yeah forgot about unicomp.

got mine shipment today from Cindy. Here some potato pics.

Aand SSK already up and running. Typing on it and i love it!

[benichka]

I read that you cleaned the keys on this one but it look in a pretty good shape!

[Halvar]

Nice to know
But I think it'll be possible to find a good ol' M of F model in a pretty good shape

At a (most) reasonnable price...

I agree. Open a thread in our marketplace forum I'd say. I would offer you an M myself but I don't have one with FR layout, only DE.

[7bit]

Hello everybody

I noticed there is no "present yourself" section, such a shame! So I'm posting here

Actually, we do have such a section:
http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/c ... t2760.html


People usually post there things like:
"I'm new to keyboards/group buys/etc. how do I order?"

or
"WHERE ARE MY SWITCHES, DID YOU SHIP THEM YET?"

[macmakkara]

if your not after azerty layout some Fs popped on ebay and seebart asked to groupbuy those. Check greatfinds thread.

[Muirium]

Fun fact: 7bit is not even kidding! A lot of people register an account on DT just to order from his epic group buys for caps and switches. Then their first post winds up being something rude just like he said. Gotta love folks.

Nice to know
But I think it'll be possible to find a good ol' M of F model in a pretty good shape

At a (most) reasonnable price...

Yeah, far from impossible. With a bit of luck. I've done it a few times so far!

£30 absolute bargain of a mint condition Model M, which was sold at a discount because it requires Soarer's Converter:


http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/ibm-m ... t6407.html

And a free XT in almost as good shape that my dad found but hadn't identified until I got into all this and asked him to see it:


http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/xt-a ... XT#p117273

Patience required. Then a little soldering for those two, and a little cleaning for my SSK (which cost a lot more even so). I'm pleased to Macmakkara's showed up in working shape, because I have one waiting for collection too! SSKs are so good they're one of those rare boards I'll excuse myself having reserves. Doesn't hurt that they can sell again for a pretty penny, of course.

[benichka]

It's kind of sad that people come on a lot of forum just to ask question and then disapear or, in this case, to ask to buy something and then almost insult the others because the order is taking too much time... Sad and pathetic sometimes...

As for the layout, I'm into the qwerty right now so yeah, I prefer to watch the qwerty things right now

I will wait patiently to see if there is a good thing on the forum for a "decent" model M (at first) in Europe with a US ANSI layout

I try to resist the attraction for the granit round 2, they will be sooooooooooo nice on my Filco but it's almost $80 without the taxes, I try to be strong!

[andrewjoy]

Is the XT that much better than an AT ?

I have both an AT and a 122 key F and i do prefer the 122 key but that may be due to the lighter space bar.

The AT does sound better tho and its 1 part caps are better than the 2 part, just a shame its in German layout.

I did hear the XT has a more metallic feel and sound to it.

[Hypersphere]

Is the XT that much better than an AT ?

I have both an AT and a 122 key F and i do prefer the 122 key but that may be due to the lighter space bar.

The AT does sound better tho and its 1 part caps are better than the 2 part, just a shame its in German layout.

I did hear the XT has a more metallic feel and sound to it.

"Better" depends upon your criteria. I like the AT for its layout: it is easier to convert to ANSI. I also like to reconfigure keyboards into a HHKB/Mac layout, and the AT lends itself to that. However, I prefer typing on an XT because of its more precise feel and crisp metallic sound. Overall, the XT feels more solid to me than the AT.

I have an F-122 waiting to be refurbished and converted to USB. Although I prefer a smaller form factor, I am looking forward to using the F-122, which has the solid construction of the XT along with a more flexible layout.