deskthority

Hey guys,

So I just did a couple of mods on some loose switches I had.

I took a click leaf from a matias clicky switch, the dampened slider from an old AEK II and the body of an orange Alps (long back plate like in a blue Alp.

I quite like the ergo clicky alp, although I'd probably just settle for swapping all the tactile leaves in the oranges for some click leaves, not too fussed about the dampened sliders. Would these be a true ghetto blue alp? - I have never tried blue alps but I can't see how it would feel much different to this, as far as I can tell the only different component is the click leaf, which looks close enough to identical...

So this got me wondering, is it possible to buy just clicky leaves from anywhere, or is the only way to get them to harvest from other keyboards/buy a load of Matias switches to butcher?

I don't think Xiang Min ever used a classic (wide, steel) click leaf, as their switches date from 1997 onwards. We know Himake used these click leaves, though I've not tried to see if they fit. Most Alps clone switches use narrow phosphor bronze click leaves.

How does one define "ghetto blue"? Blue switches have a very special feel — a sharp tactile feel over a gentle spring. This soft feel is specific to early generations of Alps switches. My theory is that the first branded generation (white/salmon) increased the strength of the actuator leaf, and that's what gives them their balky feel:
White Alps switches have a weird erratic "will they won't they" feel where you're not sure whether they'll depress or bind. I get the same issue using blue Alps components over a black Alps switchplate and base, which is why I suspect that the switchplate is responsible for the poor feel. Blue Alps are butter smooth, but they still suffer from a bit of binding. It may be that Alps clones tend to be stiff for a similar reason; I've never tried swapping springs and click leaves between Type IV (early Himake?) and blue Alps. (Type IV isn't that bad — nowhere near as bad as later Himake and Xiang Min variants — it's a lot like white Alps in feel, but more reliable.)

I am not aware that anyone in the community has ever measured the individual force contributions of the click and tactile leaves, return springs and actuator leaves and determined their relationship to overall switch feel. As such, nobody knows what the recipe is for ghetto blues. Trial and error is needed, and a whole pile of spare keyboards :)

The only company who is likely to have attempted this in detail is Matias, whose tactile switch is significantly better than a genuine salmon or black Alps switch. Matias quiet switches do achieve that desired balance of a strong tactile event over a soft spring (they're basically what Cherry MX clear wanted to be, though I do enjoy clears for what they are). They're also fairly free from binding — they come quite close to the wide range of keystroke angles and impact forces you expect from Cherry MX and Topre, but not with 100% smoothness. I have my complaints about them, but for a first attempt they've shown up a lot of companies' work.

I don't know how their click switch compares as I've never typed on one. Still waiting for a PC Quiet Pro to be made and then I'll be buying one as soon as it comes out. Do want! I have some loose Matias switches (four of each kind), but squeezing and prodding those tells you very little.

Hope you are suitably confused and dazed now.

Well I used a wide style click leaf from a matias - not a narrow XM style clone.

The switch plate was from an orange switch, which from the pictures appears to be the same as a blue switch plate, with a longer back plate when compared with later whites/salmons/blacks etc; hence why I say its a ghetto blue as opposed to a ghetto white!

I did notice last night when looking at click leaf diagrams of blues/whites there is some extra metal on the back of the click leaf which is not present on the matias leaf.




Credit to Ripster for the photo. (which I have massacred with badly drawn beziers)

The bit of metal is the curved oblong node where the clicking part meets the back plate. I guess I could harvest some old whites to put in my orange housings for "true" ghetto blues.

It was considered that the length of the switchplate was significant in terms of how the switch feels. I am not convinced about this — I seem to recall that I performed some tests that ruled this out.

I know not of these tests!

Relatively speaking I'm new to this game, so am very appreciative of any guidance to be had. I re-read your previous post and if I interpreted it correctly this time, you are suggesting the actuator leaf on blues and oranges are different?

I am not sure what you mean by bind either.

So far I only have orange alps and cream alps, and these are the only alps I have really tried.

I am looking to get a clicky board and figured I would try to get a blue board due to the high regard they are held in. Then I might (if I can bring myself to do it) donor the switches to the m0116 because I really like the form factor (although I think the m0118 has better positioning for tilde/pipe... maybe a 118 with caps/ctrl swapped like 116). I had originally intended on getting a blue monterey board but then realised this would rule out the option of donating. This is where the idea of ghetto blues came about; as I could potentially just replace the tactile leaves in the oranges with clicks from whites; will most likely end up being cheaper than getting blues!

Maybe its futile. I just dont find the orange alps to have enough tactility; they feel fairly linear to me. Maybe I should just get a white clicky and call it a day, but I think I would always be left wondering what I had missed out on with blues.

Anyway, in my research of all things alps I had come across your name as an authority on alps, so was pleasantly surprised to see that you answered my thread.

I'd be grateful for any advice you can give me. It looks like I might be starting a long, painful and expensive journey.

Blue Alps do not have dampened sliders. I heard something once a long time ago on another forum that the bottom of the blue slider would be slightly differently bevelled from other switches, and that that would have accounted for some of its properties compared to white Alps. I am not so sure, though..

I never wrote about the tests — it was just something I tried a year ago or so.

My Matias clicky switches have that raised oblong:

[wiki]Matias switch[/wiki] (those are all my photos)

Not sure why yours lack them — that would be very odd.

"Bind" means that the slider gets stuck part-way down: if you let go, it will spring back up, but you can't press it all the way down without a lot of effort. It typically relates to what angle you press the key, and where on the keycap you press it, particularly with 1.25 and 1.5 unit (wide unstabilised) keys. For example, if you press the centre of a keycap, it will normally depress, but if you press the corner, the slider might jam. Cherry MX switches are amongst the best in the world for immunity to binding — no matter which way you press a key (straight down, sideways, centre, corner) it feels the same, giving the keyboard a flawlessly smooth and consistent feel. The first replacement keyboard I ever bought, was to replace a Dell keyboard where ctrl would bind if I hit it off-centre and I was mistyping keyboard shortcuts.

I've never tried orange, but my understanding is that blue, orange, and green use the same switchplate. Blue was replaced with white, and orange with salmon ("pink"), with both replacements being significantly stiffer. (Green and yellow are confusing.) Salmon was then replaced with black. I don't know how salmon and black differ, but black feels uniquely horrible.

Silencium plotted graphs for many of the Alps switches:

http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/k ... lpssw.html

You'll notice in particular how awful the graph is for black, which corresponds with how they feel. One difference between blue and white seems to be how far you have to press the switch before the tactile peak: the greater the distance to the peak, the better a switch feels, as you have more time to ramp up force in your finger.

I'm not an expert on this, and there is still ample opportunity for you to do a lot of experimentation. Your best starting place is the work of MouseFan and Sandy, but for that you really need to know Japanese.

PS It's "Alps" :)

Hmm that's interesting Findecanor, I will look into this. However, if I was able to get blues sliders then Id likely have the rest of the assembly too, which would kind of make the whole experiment pointless

Ok, corrected the title but left other mistakes

Dismantled the switch again to look at the click leaf and yeah it does have the bump, my bad, I just didnt notice it the first time.

One thing I did notice when re-assembling the switches is that the tactile leaf taken from the orange switch has slightly bigger protrusions, which meant that it was hard to fit the orange tactile leaf into the matias housing. I had to bend the top two protrusions inwards in order to make it fit.

I assume it is probably the case that the matias click leaves having slightly smaller dimensions than the original clicks as well.

Anyway hopefully getting a set of white clicky to put with the orange housing/switch plates/actuators. I think that will come close enough to blues to satisfy my switch lust. I guess I should research whether to use the spring from the oranges or the whites. I am guessing the oranges will be closer to the ones used in blues.

HI Guys thought I would share with your my recent attempts at modding my blue alps. Firstly I don't really think that the blue alps require modding, they are an excellent switch stock and modding was only for my peculiar interest

I've taken the matias liner damped sliders and switched them over into blue alps.

1) Took the matias sliders as replaced them as is into the blue alps

- First impression, switches were substantially quieter however I did not like the bottom out feel, reduced travel and for some reason one of my switches was not registering correct, either not appearing or sometimes chattering. I left this arrangement in for a very little time before removing it

- Second attempt, decided to mod just the alphas by removing the red sliders, cutting the dampeners in half and then only inserting them into the top half of the notch. Left the numbers so I could have a comparison. This for me made switches more enjoyable to use. I constantly compared between the stock switches and the modded alphas. The modded switches felt a bit more refined and the stock upstroke clack was gone attributing to this.

- Third attempt. realised that it was possible to just slice the overhang on the bottom of the dampener so that it be flush with base. This was a bit of a in between. Bottom out felt a lot less mushier.

- Fourth attempt kept the flush dampener in the space bar but removed the tactile leaf, this made the spacebar virtually silent.

Apologies for replying to a thread-necro, but this is relevant to my interests.

tkim are you saying you liked the half-damped feel? (clack on the downstroke, damped on the upstroke)
I tried this with Matias Click switches and just could not get used to it. I even kept it that way for several months because I really wanted to like it, but I just didn't.

Next I tried heavier return springs. (65cN, from Sprit.) This feels like an upgrade from stock Matias Click, but then I got some proper keycaps (NeXT doubleshots - nice and thick!) and now they feel too heavy. This makes no sense to me - I was expecting the thicker keycaps to be slightly heavier that the flimsy stock KBP/Matias caps, causing the switch to feel lighter, but it was exactly the opposite.

Also, did anyone ever figure out what causes that 2nd hump in the force curve of black alps? Based on the location in the graph it looks like it's the contact leaf. Would it be possible (or desirable) to put the leaf spring, slider, and switch top of a black switch onto some other base + contact assembly, for example a Matias one, in order to remove that nasty double-hump from the keyfeel?

Yes I much preferred this since the matias dampened sliders felt really mushy too me on the downstroke. I prefer the upstroke to be silenced though. I kept the numbers on the keyboard for a few days stock and would compare from time to time, once the upstroke was dampened the board was a tad quieter and it doesn't feel so clumsy to me.

I wanted to get Spirt springs but there was that whole recent debacle surrounding them. From what I have read in limited posts from testers was that the springs are quite good. Can you tell me your thoughts on them? If they are anything like the mx variants they are quite nice. Do they provide a nice smooth return force/ Sometimes I find there is a certain sluggishness when typing quickly, could be my imagination though.

I never noticed any sluggishness on any Matias switches, either stock or modded. Are you sure you're not talking about some dusty old OG Alpses?

The sprit springs do ping a bit more than stock, but I think that's just because they're new.