Leopold FC660C vs FC660M

[ohgodpleaseno]

Currently, the only Mechanical Keyboard that I own is a Filco Ninja with Browns. I'm looking into getting a smaller form factor keyboard for use with my laptop and in other locations where the keyboards are not well maintained. I have made the decision to get a Leopold FC660 because of the layout, but I'm extremely curious how Topre caps would feel compared to my current browns. If anyone could give me some insight on the similarities and/or differences of these two types of switches I would be very appreciative. Additionally, I am aware that the keyboard has a model with browns, but the price difference between FC660 models is not something that concerns me. I am only wanting to make the best possible choice between the types of switches for programming on a smaller keyboard outside of my home environment( e.g. Uni ).

Thank you!
- Guy

[Muirium]

If the price doesn't put you off, for the love of $DEITY get the one with Topre switches. They are worlds apart from Cherry. Especially for long typing sessions. The fundamental difference is the force curve. Tactile MX switches have a bump, while Topre's have a smooth sinunsoidal curve. It's tricky to describe but your fingers will set you straight.

Plenty of people here have experience with that exact model. I hear very good things about it. And the Cherry one, to be fair, only less so.

[davkol]

derp

[ohgodpleaseno]

Thank you both! In particular I'm not exactly worried about having to replace the switches, but I can't say that I wasn't interested in possibly changing keycaps. Hopefully I haven't brought up a no-no topic or something but I'm somewhat new to Deskthority so I wasn't aware there was a bit of a social issue with Topre and Cherry. I thought I had read/seen somewhere that some of the caps were non-standard size so I'm glad you confirmed that. Is it true that finding new Topre caps is much more difficult that for those of a cherry board, especially the ones on the FC660C? My final question is of whether or not the force required for Topre switches is much higher than for MX Browns? Programming typing is always much slower for me so I think that a huge force requirement might become a pain. Thanks again!

[davkol]

derp

[Muirium]

No issue is off topic here, as far as I've ever found. No need to worry. We even "threadcrap" on people's sales threads when there's something worth discussing. You'd have to try very hard indeed to piss anyone off.

Cherry's strength is its ubiquity. Much easier to find replacement caps (too easy in fact, my wallet is stinging from recent group buy action) and there's more choice amongst Cherry switch versions: MX brown versus red, blue, clear etc. The Leopold in question has a custom space bar though, if I'm not mistaken. So the Cherry option isn't ideal for replacement sets. Still easier than the Topre version though.

As for weight: brown is indeed very light. Regular Topre (the Leopold is 45g Topre, right?) isn't appreciably heavier, and the force comes on differently (a smooth curve) so you really have to judge it for yourself.

I'd buy the Topre model, and if I didn't like it after a good long session of typing, or a week, I'd sell it at or around its original price. Topre boards are in high demand. Especially here in Europe where lack of local stores and higher shipping is more of a problem.

Anyway, they're both well worth considering. You're choosing between an excellent keyboard and a superb one. Which one's which is up to who's talking!

[heissler]

I have several boards with browns, ranging from Leopold over Ducky to Filco, and enjoy them very very much. I have just recently bought a Topre board in form of a HHKB2 Pro, and god do I enjoy Topre. The "thock" you get from bottoming out just after the actuation point is just addicting. I usually avoid bottoming out with my browns, but thrive for them while on my HHKB. Both have their advantages. The oldest of my browns are slightly worn out now, feeling more like linear switches now. The newer ones feel slightly more "crisp" than the Topres.
If you have the moneys - get them both and you will enjoy them both equally.

[Hypersphere]

I have the Leopold FC660M and I should be receiving the FC660C next week. I will report back on my comparative assessment. However, since starting my quest for the perfect keyboard in the 60% to 80% range, I have tried around ten keyboards within the past few months. I started with a Filco TKL with Cherry mx blues, and I have tried 60% boards with and without dedicated arrow keys, 75% boards, and 60%+ boards like the FC660M. Because I usually like to replace the stock keycaps, I have been frustrated with any keyboard that does not have a standard layout or standard stem spacing on the spacebar (like the Leopold). This leaves the Poker II on the small end (60%) and just about any TKL on the larger end (80%). However, I have been lucky enough to snare an IBM SSK in excellent condition, and I am typing on it now. It has everything I have been seeking: smaller than full size, superb build quality, excellent fit and finish, ideal force-travel curve via its buckling spring switches, and beautiful dye sublimated PBT keycaps that I would not want to change.

My laptop is an 11-inch Macbook Air, and on the rare occasions when I need to use a laptop, I manage with the built-in keyboard. However, if I were to use a mechanical keyboard with the Macbook, I think I would go for either the Poker II or the Tex Beetle. Indeed, the Beetle looks like it was made to be a companion to the the Macbook Air.

[Muirium]

The SSK is one of the very best keyboards ever made. But take a picture of it hooked up to your MacBook if you want a laugh. Apple's a little more into space saving than IBM managed with the Model M! The Tex, meanwhile, is so purposefully matched with Apple's metal gear that most every picture anyone posts of their Beetle is slap bang on top of a Mac.

I'd see about trading those unused keyboards of yours RJ, and climbing up to an HHKB. It and the SSK share a pitch perfect set of caps. Fortunate, as compared to Cherry's, Topre and IBM caps are like hen's teeth.

[Hypersphere]

Indeed, the HHKB Pro 2 is pleasing to the eye, and I think it might be the next-smallest mechanical out there -- just a tad deeper than the Poker II. However, unless I were to adopt the HHKB Pro 2 as my only board, changing back and forth between its rather alien layout and a standard board would unduly tax my poor aching neurons.

I am hoping that Tex might come out with a standard-layout model, essentially a Poker II with the build quality and good looks of the Beetle.

[Muirium]

There's always a chance they might. You'd think that standard caps are cheaper for the manufacturers, too.

The day that Fujitsu / Topre come out with a Bluetooth HHKB is the day I officially go insane and cough up the cash for a truly premium keyboard. (My buckling spring collection is fortunately cheap!) Because they will have made essentially the very thing that I want most.

Even if it has a plastic plate…

[ohgodpleaseno]

It's somewhat sad, but the only reason I haven't opted for a keyboard other than the FC660 is because I need both dedicated arrow keys and at minimum a 2/3 sized right shift. I tried to use something( I can't recall which keyboard exactly ) with a right shift the same size as the Tex Beetle, and it just was not possible for me to use. I have tried a few times to adopt a left shift strategy but changing to left is just a bit too difficult. Is there any keyboard similar to the FC660 with a 2/3 shift and dedicated arrow keys? I've looked around but nothing comes up.

The discussion is much appreciated!

EDIT: The initial description was not clear enough. I am aware that there are several TKL board with dedicated arrows and full sized left shifts. The issue with these boards is the size of them. It would be correct to say that the type of boards I'm interested in are those usually categorized as 60%'s. TKL is not small enough as a result of the sometimes included Function row and usually included INS/DEL/Home/End etc. etc. Hopefully this clears up what I was initially trying to describe in this post.

[fifkikker]

The oldest of my browns are slightly worn out now, feeling more like linear switches now. The newer ones feel slightly more "crisp" than the Topres.

Can you say anything about how long it took for them to wear out? thanks!

[heissler]

The ones I have at work get used quite heavily, I'd say about 6.000-10.000 words per day. They started feeling different after about 3 months. My Ducky at home still feels like new after about 6 months or so tho.

[Hypersphere]

It's somewhat sad, but the only reason I haven't opted for a keyboard other than the FC660 is because I need both dedicated arrow keys and at minimum a 2/3 sized right shift. I tried to use something( I can't recall which keyboard exactly ) with a right shift the same size as the Tex Beetle, and it just was not possible for me to use. I have tried a few times to adopt a left shift strategy but changing to left is just a bit too difficult. Is there any keyboard similar to the FC660 with a 2/3 shift and dedicated arrow keys? I've looked around but nothing comes up.

The discussion is much appreciated!

EDIT: The initial description was not clear enough. I am aware that there are several TKL board with dedicated arrows and full sized left shifts. The issue with these boards is the size of them. It would be correct to say that the type of boards I'm interested in are those usually categorized as 60%'s. TKL is not small enough as a result of the sometimes included Function row and usually included INS/DEL/Home/End etc. etc. Hopefully this clears up what I was initially trying to describe in this post.

You may find that fellow keyboard fanatics can be a bit like politicians when it comes to answering questions. We say whatever we want, regardless of what the question was actually asking!

I had the same issue that you had with small right-shift keys. I tried the Beetle, and although I admire the workmanship and appearance, I could not adapt to the 1x right shift.

The right shift on the Leopold FC660 series is the same size as the left shift: 2.25x, as opposed to 2.75x on a full-size layout. So, this would be 2.25/2.75 = 81.8% of full size.

I have tried some boards whose right shifts are 1.75x = 1.75/2.75 = 63.6% of full size. I find this quite acceptable. One board in this category that surprised me is the Keycool 84 white PBT version, a 75% board. I did not expect to like it, but I did. It looks and feels a bit cheap, but I found it a delight for typing. The keys make a satisfying clack/thock sound, and the PBT keycaps feel agreeably textured and dry, like pumice stones. This keyboard includes dedicated arrow keys as well as Home, End, PgUp, and PgDn in an extra column on the far right. It also includes dedicated function keys across the top. Replacement keycaps are available at a very low price from the Banggood site, and the keyboard itself can be bought for a good price from Qtan's online store. I was considering picking up the charcoal grey version as well and putting the white keycaps on it. The Leopold is a higher-quality board and looks better than the Keycool, but I actually enjoy typing on the Keycool better than I do typing on the Leopold.

In any event, you cannot really go wrong with the Leopold, either the FC660C or FC660M. They are both solid boards with an excellent layout. The only thing I would like them to change in future revisions is the choice of keys on the far right. I would like to see 4 keys in addition to the right arrow key. Perhaps they could be user-selected via programming, firmware, or DIP switches. It would also be good if Leopold offered some keycap sets. I have used keycaps from three different sources to replace the stock caps on my FC660M. One thing I did was to use a different color for the arrow keys and Insert/Delete keys to provide some demarcation from the alpha and modifier keys in the main typing area. In addition, I used black on white keys for the alphas to enhance legibility.

[davkol]

derp

[ohgodpleaseno]

... One board in this category that surprised me is the Keycool 84 white PBT version, a 75% board....

Now I'm very interested in the board you mentioned. From what I can see on varying websites, it seems to be about the same size as the FC660. If you actually own a Keycool 84 could you do me the favor of confirming this? A keyboard the size of a TKL just wouldn't be small enough to carry around to classes and public work areas. Thanks for the insight on left and right shift sizes. Until now I honestly had not realized the shifts were different sizes on full sized keyboards. Despite that, the 63% sized shift seems to be enough to accommodate my tendency to use the right side of the shift key.

[davkol]

derp

[ohgodpleaseno]

It has an extra row of keys compared to the FC660, which is actually a sort of a 65% layout. 75% keyboards (TypeMatrix 2030, Noppoo Choc Mini) fit fine in my backpack, they're actually about the same size as a 12" thinkpad. Tenkeyless, which has ~2.5 extra columns, would be kinda borderline.

I'm sorry, but this post is somewhat confusing for me. Are you saying that the FC660 is a 65% and the Keycool 84/Noppoo Choc Mini are 75% keyboards? The keys on the Keycool/Choc Mini look somewhat cramped to me. I don't mean in the sense that the keys are all placed together with no breathing room, but the keys themselves seem slightly smaller size. Is this actually the case?

[Muirium]

A picture of the Leopold, Keycool 84 and a TKL all next to each other would be quite useful here. But I own precisely zero of these boards. Wonder if RJ has a camera…

One potentially useful fact: mechanical keyboard layouts are all based on a common "unit". The switches are too big to cram them much closer. It differs very slightly between Cherry MX, Topre and IBM, but not by much. Nothing like you'll find between laptops. All caps are 1 unit tall (besides the tall ISO return key and the double height one on a numpad, which are both 2 units tall). All widths are in increments of a quarter of that same unit. Regular keys are 1x1 unit, backspace is typically 2x1, and space bar is mostly 6.25x1. So you can basically eyeball physical cap size from isolated pictures.

[davkol]

derp

[Hypersphere]

It has an extra row of keys compared to the FC660, which is actually a sort of a 65% layout. 75% keyboards (TypeMatrix 2030, Noppoo Choc Mini) fit fine in my backpack, they're actually about the same size as a 12" thinkpad. Tenkeyless, which has ~2.5 extra columns, would be kinda borderline.

I'm sorry, but this post is somewhat confusing for me. Are you saying that the FC660 is a 65% and the Keycool 84/Noppoo Choc Mini are 75% keyboards? The keys on the Keycool/Choc Mini look somewhat cramped to me. I don't mean in the sense that the keys are all placed together with no breathing room, but the keys themselves seem slightly smaller size. Is this actually the case?

I find this diagram helpful:

(from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File% ... Factor.svg)

ANSI-KBD-layout.png (42.9 KiB) Viewed 10967 times

[Muirium]

I'd like a diagram with 60, 65, 75 and TKL marked out, because I've honestly only a fuzzy grasp on what those mean between 60% and TKL. The intermediate sizes move keys around, messing up the comparison.

[Hypersphere]

... One board in this category that surprised me is the Keycool 84 white PBT version, a 75% board....

Now I'm very interested in the board you mentioned. From what I can see on varying websites, it seems to be about the same size as the FC660. If you actually own a Keycool 84 could you do me the favor of confirming this? A keyboard the size of a TKL just wouldn't be small enough to carry around to classes and public work areas. Thanks for the insight on left and right shift sizes. Until now I honestly had not realized the shifts were different sizes on full sized keyboards. Despite that, the 63% sized shift seems to be enough to accommodate my tendency to use the right side of the shift key.

Here are some dimensions:

Poker II: 295 x 102 mm
Keycool 84 white PBT: 318 x 138 mm
Leopold FC660M: 328 x 109 mm
Leopold FC660C: 328 x 112 mm
Matias Mini Quiet Pro: 337 x 165 mm
Filco MJ2 TKL: 356 x 135 mm

[Hypersphere]

I'd like a diagram with 60, 65, 75 and TKL marked out, because I've honestly only a fuzzy grasp on what those mean between 60% and TKL. The intermediate sizes move keys around, messing up the comparison.

Referring to the ANSI layout in the post above, 100% is of course everything. 80% is TKL. 60% is just the alphas and modifiers with no arrow keys, other navigation keys, or F-row keys (Poker II). 75% is an intermediate between 60 and 75%, usually including F-row keys, arrow keys, and some center-island nav keys, but with a non-standard layout to conserve space (Keycool 84, Choc Mini, Race). 60%-plus is 60% plus arrow keys and a variable number of center-island keys (Leopold FC660M and FC660C). There are also 60% boards that change the standard layout to enable dedicated arrow keys (Tex Beetle).

[Muirium]

Thanks. I've heard 65% often enough and assumed it was 60% with arrows crammed inside from the right, plus a home/end or page up/down duo or two. It's all a mess really. Why I prefer straight 60% and a layer, or going up to TKL.

Wonder what a TKL without function row is called. If there were ever keys asking to be put in a layer, it's the f-row. It's right there in their names!

[Hypersphere]

Thanks. I've heard 65% often enough and assumed it was 60% with arrows crammed inside from the right, plus a home/end or page up/down duo or two. It's all a mess really. Why I prefer straight 60% and a layer, or going up to TKL.

Wonder what a TKL without function row is called. If there were ever keys asking to be put in a layer, it's the f-row. It's right there in their names!

Yes, the nomenclature breaks down and gets fuzzy in the twilight zone between 60 and 80%.

There was a post recently, either on GH or DT, where someone had proposed that 65% ought to refer to a TKL w/o the F-row.

Yes, the F-keys are indeed asking to be put into the F-layer. Nothing could be more intuitive. I would not miss the F-row much, but there are those who make extensive use of the Function keys.

In fact, inclusion of the F-key row was one of my main gripes about the Keycool 84. I describe it as a "wall of keys". Without the spatial or color-coded demarcation of F-keys along the top or Nav keys down the right side, it looks like a jumble. It would streamline things quite a lot to put the F-keys into the Fn layer, color-code the right-hand column, and also color-code the arrow cluster. Otherwise, I do not mind the 1.75x right shift or the 1.00x right-side modifiers at all. A suitably trimmed down KC84 could be a real winner.

Even so, and although I like the Keycool 84 and Leopold FC660M quite a lot, it is a expensive and a pain to locate replacement keycaps for these non-standard layouts. Consequently, like you, I have just about given up on the intermediate boards and would prefer a standard layout 60% board like the Poker II or a regular 80% TKL.

Having said this, if the companies producing the intermediate boards would provide replacement keycap sets (preferably in a two-tone scheme in dye-sub PBT), I would be more inclined to use these boards.

BTW, an added bonus of the KC 84 is that its spacebar fits the Leopold FC660M. Moreover, a standard spacebar, e.g., from a Filco TKL, will fit the KC84 (but not the Leopold). So, I have put the KC84 spacebar on my FC660M so that I could put some white PBT keycaps on the Leopold, and the KC84 is doing fine with a standard white spacebar. I've ordered a blank set of white PBTs for the KC84 (less than 18 USD shipped from Banggood!) so that my Leo will not have to display the KC logo on the spacebar.

[davkol]

derp

[Hypersphere]

I have a problem with calling tenkeyless 80%, because of GH80 (basically 75% layout with an extra cluster of function keys on the left). This whole thing is a mess. We can't use number of keys because of ANSI and ISO, and now this...

I don't consider keycaps on my choc mini to be an issue. They're thick PBT/POM in Cherry profile out of the box, no need to replace them.

Yes, standardized nomenclature breaks down in many instances requiring a redefinition for each specialized board.

And yes, there is a different threshold for keycap replacement for every combination of keyboard and its owner. For example, I feel no need to change the keycaps on my IBM SSK, but on my KC84, although I like the way the stock PBT caps sound and feel, I don't like the way they look, so I will be replacing them as soon as I can muster the funds and find good sources for dye-sub PBT caps. I've already changed the KC84 caps once, to a modified doubleshot ABS Dolch set, but I didn't like the sound, feel, or look on the white case, so I went back the stock caps for the time being. To each his own!

[ohgodpleaseno]

As a somewhat new recruit to the world of mechanical keyboards, and compact ones at that, I have to say that all of this discussion has helped leaps and bounds with my decision on which keyboard to get. It seems like a FC660C or FC660M with browns will be the way to go if I want to get the dedicated arrow keys + decently sized left shift all on a quality board. The Keycool 84 and Choc Mini both seem fantastic but a little cheap and too clustered for me to actually use.

It's difficult to pin something like the FC660 as a 65% or something of that size considering it's non-standard layout, but thanks to all of you now I understand the naming system of TKL, 80% and 60% boards.

In the end I have to agree with Muirium that a photo of the boards together would be fantastic. The dimensions help with size comparison but in the end seeing the boards side by side would give a much better view of the size differences. Is there someone I could ask to do us the favor of taking a photo like that?

Additionally, is there any spacebar out there that currently works on an FC660C? Scouring the web for standard sized Topre caps alone has proven difficult. Is it safe to assume that finding a non-standard sized key for a Topre board is near impossible?

I really love the passion and responsiveness of the keyboard enthusiasts community. Thanks to all of you for fielding blocks of question text.