deskthority

Hello everyone,

I am lurking this forum for a couple of weeks now and decided to finally de-lurk a few days ago. Through this forum and geekhack (I like this site more, a least from my lurking-experience), I have gained interest in mechanical keyboards after I originally google'd for "ergonomic keyboards" (back then I thought something like the "Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000" could be considered really ergonomic and I searched for something less "extreme" ...).

Since these widgets normally are not exactly cheap by any means, and because I am something of a cheapskate, I thought, for me, it would be best to actually try a mechanical before I plunge myself into debts buying a new one. (I mean, if I bought a keyboard for 50 € at the very least, I should be able to value it, because if not, I wouldn't need another keyboard or a 5 €-rubber dome would be sufficient. No pearls before swine and such, you know.)

So some days ago I found the keyboard you (hopefully) can see pictures of below. On the bottom it says "G81-3004 HAD / 10" and after I pulled some keycaps with an improvised keycap puller , I was rather surprised to find switches that look like Cherry MX blacks (at least that is what I am thinking, but I have never seen any mechanical keyboard switch for myself, so this is all "book knowledge"), although I thought that G81s generally have MY switches that are "not really" considered good.

Could someone here tell me whether or not I have found something that is worth cleaning and buying an adapter for (DIN → PS/2 I suppose, right?) ? I already tried typing on it and it felt weird and nice at the same time (actually not louder than my "Logitech Internet Navigator Keyboard", perhaps even quiter), but since it was not plugged into any device, I of course do not even know if I even triggered a switch, because I tried not to bottom out.

Or should I order one of these G80-1800s from cumb.de (or whatever) to get a cheap mechanical for testing? And are Cherry MX blacks even suitable for "touch typing beginners" (I'm currently trying to learn it) that never typed on anything else than a rubber dome (or possibly scissor switch)? Because from what I have read until now, I got the impression that I would like MX blues best if it was not for the noise.



Some further questions considering the pictures/the keyboard: Are these doubleshots? Does the red switch in the first picture mean that it would be PC-compatible if I found/bought a suitable adapter to PS/2 or USB? Are these (normal) MX blacks at all? Some keys were rather difficult/hard to press, the right shift key in particular, at least if hit off the centre at the edge. Is this normal?

Oh, and sorry for my English, but I'm not a native speaker.


If tl;dr: Is this keyboard any good? Should I clean it and buy an adapter for it?

Ah yes, those are indeed vintage Cherry MY switches. I have two keyboards with them, but they are just way too stiff for my taste. They can be considered "mechanical" but they offer only a linear feeling (it's just two springs pushing the key up, no extra friction like the MX switches).

They are compatible with a modern PC, given that you have a PS/2 to AT adapter (a cable or thingy with both the large AT connector and a PS/2 connector). If your computer has a PS/2 port, you could then plug it in directly, or you could buy a PS/2 to USB converter (a little electronic device with a PS/2 connector and an USB connector, it should contain a chip though).
You do want to consider if it's worth buying this cable and adapter though, as the MY isn't the best keyboard out there. They are sturdy and reliable, but the stiffness just kills it for long typing sessions.

These keyboards are mostly prized nowadays for their special keycaps (double-shot) which have the legends embedded in the plastic, rather than being printed on top of the keycaps when the keyboard is finished. Check the backside of the keycaps, you can clearly see that it is made out of grey and black plastic.

What a coincidence! I recently also stumbled upon a PEACOCK keyboard using the exact same switches. Mine looks a lot like a G80-1000 but the bottom of the case is different. There is also no Cherry branding anywhere on the case. Keycaps are dobuleshot just like yours.

Cheers

As a matter of fact it appears not to be an uncommon brand, here is another one for sale on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 0864397643
I have one in the older 1000 version, also with old-style MY switches and thick doubleshot keycaps.
No label at all (has obviously been removed).

This being said, if you want to gain experience with mechanical keyboards, MY switches are not really what you would need. Grab a cheap MX board and you'll feel the difference at once.

MX blacks are my favorite switches for typing precisely because they are linear and have a higher actuation force than others.
- I hold tactile response from the keys to be more a gadget, because at normal typing speed you couldn't "wait" for the response before you proceed to the next key, so in fact you would have typed several more characters already before you "miss" the tactile response of a not actuated key. And you would probably have already "missed" the character on the screen anyway (touch typing normally implies your eyes wandering between the screen and whatever document you are working on, if any).
- I want my keyboard not to react at once when I rest my fingers on the keys. I do not use a wrist rest when typing (it would just slow me down), so when I actually stop typing (for example when thinking about formulating the next sentence or when waiting for an audio file to keep up with my typing speed) I position my fingers on the home row (and sometimes on the arrow or numpad keys) and of course do not want to have to lift my fingers in order to prevent the switches from actuating. And of course, the force I need when typing keeps my fingers trained also for other tasks (like playing a music instrument).

I keep contending blacks are the best choice for professional typing (which I have been doing for years), but this seems to be a minority opinion. In any case, any MX switch is better than a MY switch.

By the way, kbdfr (or sixty), any idea if that Peacock case is G80-3000 compatible?

I got so used to MX Blacks that switching back to IBM SSK felt really strange

Half-Saint wrote:By the way, kbdfr (or sixty), any idea if that Peacock case is G80-3000 compatible? (...)

Not sure which you mean, but I'm afraid I wouldn't know anyway

The one the OP posted.

JBert wrote:Ah yes, those are indeed vintage Cherry MY switches. I have two keyboards with them, but they are just way too stiff for my taste. They can be considered "mechanical" but they offer only a linear feeling (it's just two springs pushing the key up, no extra friction like the MX switches).

They are compatible with a modern PC, given that you have a PS/2 to AT adapter (a cable or thingy with both the large AT connector and a PS/2 connector). If your computer has a PS/2 port, you could then plug it in directly, or you could buy a PS/2 to USB converter (a little electronic device with a PS/2 connector and an USB connector, it should contain a chip though).
You do want to consider if it's worth buying this cable and adapter though, as the MY isn't the best keyboard out there. They are sturdy and reliable, but the stiffness just kills it for long typing sessions.

These keyboards are mostly prized nowadays for their special keycaps (double-shot) which have the legends embedded in the plastic, rather than being printed on top of the keycaps when the keyboard is finished. Check the backside of the keycaps, you can clearly see that it is made out of grey and black plastic.

I thought these might be vintage Cherry MX blacks or something. It really got my hopes up as I stumbled upon the "Dating Cherry keyboards" thread (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title= ... old+models) on geekhack, because I thought that "HAD" would correspond to "two-shot injection molded, MX black and German layout", while "F19" in the serial number would indicate a production year of 1993. Oh, and another thing: How are additional labels on double-shot keycaps done? I think I saw some green lettering on, for example, the front of the "Pause" key. Are these only printed on the key caps?

Then what does this red switch (first picture) do? Or is this something that is not common for older keyboards? Are these boards at least better than normal rubber domes? Because then I might buy such an adapter, since I found some for about 5 € and my new PC (which, more or less, is the reason for my desire for a new keyboard) still has a PS/2-port.

Mmmh, I should probably just win a new keyboard via voting for the Deskthority Awards.

Half-Saint wrote:What a coincidence! I recently also stumbled upon a PEACOCK keyboard using the exact same switches. Mine looks a lot like a G80-1000 but the bottom of the case is different. There is also no Cherry branding anywhere on the case. Keycaps are dobuleshot just like yours.

Cheers

And these really are vintage MY switches? Given that, they really changed their appearance a lot (from "closed" and black to "open" and white), I think.

kbdfr wrote:As a matter of fact it appears not to be an uncommon brand, here is another one for sale on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 0864397643
I have one in the older 1000 version, also with old-style MY switches and thick doubleshot keycaps.
No label at all (has obviously been removed).

This being said, if you want to gain experience with mechanical keyboards, MY switches are not really what you would need. Grab a cheap MX board and you'll feel the difference at once.

MX blacks are my favorite switches for typing precisely because they are linear and have a higher actuation force than others.
- I hold tactile response from the keys to be more a gadget, because at normal typing speed you couldn't "wait" for the response before you proceed to the next key, so in fact you would have typed several more characters already before you "miss" the tactile response of a not actuated key. And you would probably have already "missed" the character on the screen anyway (touch typing normally implies your eyes wandering between the screen and whatever document you are working on, if any).
- I want my keyboard not to react at once when I rest my fingers on the keys. I do not use a wrist rest when typing (it would just slow me down), so when I actually stop typing (for example when thinking about formulating the next sentence or when waiting for an audio file to keep up with my typing speed) I position my fingers on the home row (and sometimes on the arrow or numpad keys) and of course do not want to have to lift my fingers in order to prevent the switches from actuating. And of course, the force I need when typing keeps my fingers trained also for other tasks (like playing a music instrument).

I keep contending blacks are the best choice for professional typing (which I have been doing for years), but this seems to be a minority opinion. In any case, any MX switch is better than a MY switch.

OK, but where do I get such a cheap MX board (German, or at least ISO) from? Are these G80-1800s described in the thread "Cheap linear boards" in a good condition? The online shop looks a bit "shady"... Or do you know where I could get another cheap MX board in Germany? I think if I knew which switch I liked, I would just buy a new G80-3000XY, since they are quite cheap (in Germany) for a new mechanical. But I read their build quality might be an issue. Is that valid or only in comparison to, I don't know, >150 € mechanicals?

So, if I wanted a switch with a tactile response, I should look for MX clears and MX blues would be too soft? Somehow, I think I might like some kind of tactile response, since I think it might be quite hard to not bottom out linear switches if you do not have any experience with keyboards other than rubber dome keyboards, where you have to bottom out of necessity to actually trigger anything. Since I am rather sensitive towards loud noise, at least when I want to concentrate, a keyboard that is too loud (because of me or the keyboard itself) would be somewhat a deal breaker for me, I think.

Lustique wrote: I thought these might be vintage Cherry MX blacks or something. It really got my hopes up as I stumbled upon the "Dating Cherry keyboards" thread (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title= ... old+models) on geekhack, because I thought that "HAD" would correspond to "two-shot injection molded, MX black and German layout", while "F19" in the serial number would indicate a production year of 1993. Oh, and another thing: How are additional labels on double-shot keycaps done? I think I saw some green lettering on, for example, the front of the "Pause" key. Are these only printed on the key caps?

Then what does this red switch (first picture) do? Or is this something that is not common for older keyboards? Are these boards at least better than normal rubber domes? Because then I might buy such an adapter, since I found some for about 5 € and my new PC (which, more or less, is the reason for my desire for a new keyboard) still has a PS/2-port.

Mmmh, I should probably just win a new keyboard via voting for the Deskthority Awards.

Cherry serial numbers are confusing, so you want to read that entire wiki page again.

You must decode them piece by piece, going from left to right:

• G81 means it uses MY switches.
• 3004 means it is another version of the 3000 model, in this case a custom one for Peacock.
• HAD -> the H stands for doubleshot. The A could mean anything since the model is 3004. Check the GH wiki again and you'll see that there are lots of exceptions. The last character, D, means it has a "Deutsch" layout.

The extra labels are printed, although I don't know whether they'd use dye sublimation or pad printing.

The red switch is proof that this keyboard is old; it is used to make the keyboard compatible with the first IBM PC (or IBM PC XT) whereas the 'AT' setting means it will work with the IBM PC AT or any modern PC.

Lustique wrote:And these really are vintage MY switches? Given that, they really changed their appearance a lot (from "closed" and black to "open" and white), I think.

I'm sure of it, I've got both the white and (older) black version, the older being an Hxx version as well.

Lustique wrote:OK, but where do I get such a cheap MX board (German, or at least ISO) from? Are these G80-1800s described in the thread "Cheap linear boards" in a good condition? The online shop looks a bit "shady"... Or do you know where I could get another cheap MX board in Germany? I think if I knew which switch I liked, I would just buy a new G80-3000XY, since they are quite cheap (in Germany) for a new mechanical. But I read their build quality might be an issue. Is that valid or only in comparison to, I don't know, >150 € mechanicals?

So, if I wanted a switch with a tactile response, I should look for MX clears and MX blues would be too soft? Somehow, I think I might like some kind of tactile response, since I think it might be quite hard to not bottom out linear switches if you do not have any experience with keyboards other than rubber dome keyboards, where you have to bottom out of necessity to actually trigger anything. Since I am rather sensitive towards loud noise, at least when I want to concentrate, a keyboard that is too loud (because of me or the keyboard itself) would be somewhat a deal breaker for me, I think.

Cherry MX clears can be bought in Germany, I believe they are sold as "Soft-Druckpunt" (I've got a G80-3000 LQCDE as well).

You are right though that the quality of the Cherry case and keycaps has decreased over the years. You could use the case of your G81 if you'd want, but you would need to cut out space for the windows keys.

If you really want a quality keyboard, you could find a Leopold or similar with clears, but it's simply gonna cost you a whole lot more.

How's a Leopold different from a Cherry quality-wise? Switches are the same.

JBert wrote:Cherry serial numbers are confusing, so you want to read that entire wiki page again.

You must decode them piece by piece, going from left to right:

• G81 means it uses MY switches.
• 3004 means it is another version of the 3000 model, in this case a custom one for Peacock.
• HAD -> the H stands for doubleshot. The A could mean anything since the model is 3004. Check the GH wiki again and you'll see that there are lots of exceptions. The last character, D, means it has a "Deutsch" layout.

The extra labels are printed, although I don't know whether they'd use dye sublimation or pad printing.

The red switch is proof that this keyboard is old; it is used to make the keyboard compatible with the first IBM PC (or IBM PC XT) whereas the 'AT' setting means it will work with the IBM PC AT or any modern PC.

I'm sure of it, I've got both the white and (older) black version, the older being an Hxx version as well.

Cherry MX clears can be bought in Germany, I believe they are sold as "Soft-Druckpunt" (I've got a G80-3000 LQCDE as well).

You are right though that the quality of the Cherry case and keycaps has decreased over the years. You could use the case of your G81 if you'd want, but you would need to cut out space for the windows keys.

If you really want a quality keyboard, you could find a Leopold or similar with clears, but it's simply gonna cost you a whole lot more.

Yeah, I get that now. I probably should have started at the beginning and not right in the middle of the wiki page.

When I have the chance to look at it again, I will make a photo (better quality this time ) of one of these particular keycaps. Unfortunately I cannot reach it right now, but I will. And I think I will get it and one of those adapters, even if it is not a particularly nice board switch-wise, but it should at least offer a workout for my fingers from time to time.

OK, then I think I will give it a go. The keycaps were really nice, especially the "F" and "J" keys, because they were more concave than the rest of the keys and did not have these nipples to indicate the homerow as all modern keyboards I know of have.

Oh, ok then.

Are they really that stiff or are they more like blues without the clicky noises?

I think I could not cut into such a sound case. If it was broken, I might, but not like this.

And the import fees and postage would probably be as much as the keyboard itself. And it would probably be ANSI too, right? I think the only reasonable option for me beside Cherry boards would be a Filco from the Keyboard Company (or a miniguru perhaps, some time in the future? ). Hmmm...

Half-Saint wrote:How's a Leopold different from a Cherry quality-wise? Switches are the same.

He is probably thinking of the quality of the cases (or keycaps?), I think.

Lustique wrote:

JBert wrote:Cherry MX clears can be bought in Germany, I believe they are sold as "Soft-Druckpunt" (I've got a G80-3000 LQCDE as well).

And the import fees and postage would probably be as much as the keyboard itself. And it would probably be ANSI too, right? I think the only reasonable option for me beside Cherry boards would be a Filco from the Keyboard Company (or a miniguru perhaps, some time in the future? ). Hmmm...

For the record, G80-3000 LQCDE means it is a Cherry MX 3000 model, comes with lasered keycaps on MX clear switches and has a layout for "DEutschland" . The layout is an ISO variant.

Are you from Germany or are you not? Your profile seems to say so...

Yes, I know, I meant the Leopold(s). (Sorry, probably a little misunderstanding )
Here, I can get new G80-3000s for around 50€ incl. postage (cheapest offer I could find).

Yes, I am from Germany, hence my assumption that a Leopold would cost me a lot, since the only shop I know that sales them is elitekeyboards where these keyboards start at about 100$ without import fees or postage, I think. And all of them are ANSI. (And since I really don't like the ANSI layout, although I never tried it, that is not really an alternative.)

If you can stand a used board, I have several g80-3000 boards with blues or blacks Im selling for 30€ per board. DE layout of course. I can also throw in a din ps2 adapter for free

Ascaii wrote:If you can stand a used board, I have several g80-3000 boards with blues or blacks Im selling for 30€ per board. DE layout of course. I can also throw in a din ps2 adapter for free

Yes, I think I would be OK with a used board, at least for such a price. But that actually depends on how used they are. (Oh, and the adapter would be a nice bonus as well. This way I could try whether or not MYs really are that awful.)

I think then I would be interested in one MX blue version, because apparently you can get cheap G80-1800s from a Berlin based shop you probably know too and I would like to try both switches if possible. You don't still happen to have some of the keyboards you bought from there yourself, do you? Or did you just harvest some caps and then ditched the rest?

i have a new boxed 3000 with blues you can have for 35. I also have an averagely used one for 30. Dont have any atm, but i can get more ofc.

BTW: the G80-3000 also has versions with and without Windows keys. I'm guessing Ascaii's keyboard lacks these, but those keys aren't used all that much.

JBert wrote:BTW: the G80-3000 also has versions with and without Windows keys. I'm guessing Ascaii's keyboard lacks these, but those keys aren't used all that much.

na actually these are new ones with winkeys. one is BNIB. blues have ps2, blacks have USB interfaces.

Oh, then it's a good deal.

Ascaii wrote:i have a new boxed 3000 with blues you can have for 35. I also have an averagely used one for 30. [...]

In this case the new one really sounds tempting, but at the moment I do not really have access to a bank account, so I could not transfer to you right now, but I will be at the end of next week. I still have to think about it though (still not sure whether or not blues would be too loud for me ), or at least about what I would like to order as well. I think a key puller would be nice to have as well, if you also have those...

Ascaii wrote:[...]Dont have any atm, but i can get more ofc.

Do you mean the G80-1800s from cumb.de (or to be precise the actual shop in Berlin)? So you would really get some (2 perhaps) for me or did I misunderstand you here?

JBert wrote:BTW: the G80-3000 also has versions with and without Windows keys. I'm guessing Ascaii's keyboard lacks these, but those keys aren't used all that much.

Thanks for asking, I didn't think of that possibility.

Ascaii wrote:[...]na actually these are new ones with winkeys. one is BNIB. blues have ps2, blacks have USB interfaces.

These are new but still have PS/2? Do they still make those? I thought you could only get USB boards these days, since that is the only option I found on the Cherry website.

I dont mind giving you a money back guarantee as long as you pay return shipping. that way you could try them out.

Yes, I was referring to the Berlin 1800s, I used to work for the guy.

New doesnt mean it was made in the past 5 years. Its been sitting in a box. The box is slightly mauled so there is a bit of dust, but the board is unused.

Ascaii wrote:I dont mind giving you a money back guarantee as long as you pay return shipping. that way you could try them out.

Yes, I was referring to the Berlin 1800s, I used to work for the guy.

New doesnt mean it was made in the past 5 years. Its been sitting in a box. The box is slightly mauled so there is a bit of dust, but the board is unused.

Oh, that would be splendid! It's just that I have rather sensitive ears. I think I could really like the clicks, but not if they are too loud, hence my concerns.



Keyboards probably age very well if unused and located in their original box, right? Do you know how old it actually is? Could I expect double shots? That would not really make any difference to me ... yet (lasered caps would be perfectly fine, I think), but I'm curious.

Shall I send you a PM with the things I would like to buy from you and could you give me an estimate of the overall price incl. shipping then?

nah theyre lasered. Just send me a pm and we can talk...if you want some DS caps I should be able to provide those as well.

Ascaii wrote:[...]New doesnt mean it was made in the past 5 years. Its been sitting in a box. The box is slightly mauled so there is a bit of dust, but the board is unused.

Thanks again for the boards, but funny thing: I think this board really was made in the past 5 years (approximately, or at least it's possible). The serial number indicates it was made in 2006.

Could well be^^. Next time i should get over my laziness and just check the box

Hi all,
I wonder why this keyboard was just sold for more than 100 euro:
https://m.ebay.de/itm/Cherry-Tastatur-G ... 5147798#vi

Yes those are double shot keycaps but these are MY and not MX switches,right?

kohlerm wrote: Hi all,
I wonder why this keyboard was just sold for more than 100 euro:
https://m.ebay.de/itm/Cherry-Tastatur-G ... 5147798#vi

Yes those are double shot keycaps but these are MY and not MX switches,right?

The Peacock case is also quite valuable, it's the old style with the nice LED sticker. And with that, auctions tend to go for crazy amounts sometimes because two people or more really want the same thing...

EDIT: yes, they are MY switches