Massdrop Customer Support

[XMIT]

I'm (likely) working with Massdrop for an upcoming group buy.

Massdrop is not always well liked here on DT. For a number of reasons it makes the most sense for me to deal with them.

Massdrop is disappointed by their reputation here on DT and is working to improve it. Let's use this thread to discuss past experiences and provide feedback.

One concrete suggestion so far: Look into using Transglobal Express to ship items to the UK.

One more concrete suggestion: Open a European distribution center.

[Hypersphere]

My own experience with Massdrop has been mostly positive. My only complaints are that the cost savings are sometimes nonexistent or very small, the wait times can be very long, and they do not post previews of future drops. As for customer support, I have found it to be responsive and helpful. When I have had a problem with a product, they have either replaced the defective product or issued a refund, depending upon my preference.

[XMIT]

When I ordered Granite earlier this year they sent me International modifiers instead of the embedded numpad kit. They did promptly ship me replacements free of charge and let me keep the extra modifiers.

(Aside: one of these days I'll be selling an international modifiers kit.)

They do use an inexpensive but slow shipping option such as UPS SurePost by default.

[Wodan]

I've ordered ... a shitload of things from Massdrop and have been very happy with their service so far. There were a few hicups but they have all been solved very well so far.

Things that do not bother me but might bother others:
- Delays: it's part of the game and I never felt like Massdrop was causing the delays, just reporting them.
- Customs/Tax: It might be very convenient to underdeclare items in private GBs but as a business in a first world country you can't really expect them to forge customs forms. Support TTIP if you are unhappy about customs!
- Phat margin: Massdrop is a business and the people who take care of these drops and support have to be paid. They want to make money, they treat you like a customer.

What I really like about Massdrop:
- Status updates: they give frequent status updates about every drop you joined and often explain the cause of delays
- Refund policy: as soon as delays happen, they offer full refunds to anyone who wants out.
- Support: they have been adressing all my support cases within 1-2 business days. Even if they made things right again, I sometimes got a little bit of store credit when they messed something up.
- Track record: There is not a single item that I ordered on Massdrop that I didn't receive.
- Audience: very few community GBs reach the scale of similair Drops on Massdrop. Many things we love might have never happened without massdrop, they can reach a MUCH bigger audience and many people afraid of community GBs would still join massdrop GBs

Tl;dr: yes they are making a profit selling me the stuff I need but they also treat me like a customer and always deliver.

[zslane]

I've had only positive experiences with MassDrop. Granted, I've only purchased a handful of things through them, but aside from the long wait times (which they have little to no control over), I have no complaints whatsoever. Bear in mind that I live in the US, which eliminates quite a number of potential sources of difficulty.

It is perhaps also worth noting that I came to this, er, hobby only a year ago, and for me MassDrop is the norm for what I expect from a group buying experience. I am not used to the small, individually run group buys which offer a lot of very intimate, personal customer service (such as it is), but also a lot in the way of potential points of failure (inexperience, inability to handle orders, shipping, and refunds, in a professional and timely fashion, and so on).

[face]

I had good experiences with them. The last one: I moved and forgot to tell them that I changed my address. The package (those Topre PBT bars that took weeks) arrived, I wasn't there, got send back.

Massdrop contacted me - I offered to pay the new shipping. But they just send it to my new address for free. They always answered my mails very fast. That's pretty good service, I think.

[Ray]

I have never bought from Massdrop, that may be because I am from Germany and after shipping and customs it just isn't that good of a deal anymore. That is just the way it is.
Or because I can't browse their website.
Probably both, with the first being more critical.

[XMIT]

Thanks for the response Ray! This being a Euro-centric forum I'm sad that the shipping and customs situation is so unfortunate for so many of you. I think this is something that many in the US take for granted.

Again, if anyone has specific feedback or experience that could improve service to the EU, please do let me know. If someone in the EU (perhaps Germany) is willing to volunteer to help with all the steps I hate - namely, breaking down a box and sending out lots of smaller packages - let me know. I can always ask my manufacturer to drop ship from China to Germany.

I don't know if this is feasible for other group buys, nor am I trying to subvert my Massdrop partnership. (I would only offer this as an option well after my first group buy is over, and don't promise to do so at all yet).

[Wodan]

Massdrops shipping rates to Germany are incredible for most items. The Whitefox was only around 7-8$ ... some other keyboard kits are then randomly 25$ ...

Please check with them what affects the shipping rate to Germany and hopefully offer something <10$

I can deal with the customs, no matter how these keyboard legally come here, customs charges should apply. But 20$+ shipping would really suck.

[XMIT]

I'll see what I can do, but, a TKL keyboard within the US these days is about $15 shipping so I don't know how well we can do!

There is a hard 4 lb (about 1.8kg) cutoff above which things get more expensive.

[Darkshado]

I've bought from Massdrop once, it went well. (WASD V2 ISO with Clears)

Shipping to Canada cancelled out a number of otherwise interesting deals last time I looked around on their site. Luckily for me, I have relatives stateside where I can send things if needed; but I don't want to abuse of their kindness.

[chuckdee]

Never had a problem, and they've been totally reasonable when there's been a problem.

Also, keep in mind, some suggestions require a not-insignificant outlay of funds that they might have on the radar, but not in the short term plans. Both of those that you've stated might fall into that category. We also don't know their business constraints which might limit what they can do also.

[XMIT]

I've posed this question both here and on GH.

The #1 piece of feedback I've gotten is: International shipping is terrible.

citrojohn had one suggestion: using a US based proxy. For my own upcoming group buy, I can do this for a very limited number (10 at most) of boards.

This is not a long term or a scalable solution. I will continue to chat with Massdrop about this.

[citrojohn]

Thanks for the reply, XMIT, and for being willing to handle a few boards. I agree it isn't something that can be expected on a large scale - just an expedient in case a MOQ is put in jeopardy because people object to Massdrop.

Personally, I disapprove of the way Massdrop operate as a commercial company when it suits them (taking cuts on sales, exploiting their position to get discounts from Signature Plastics) but refuse to act like a commercial concern when they might have to take some risk (buying things before they've got a customer for them, for instance, or soaking up variations in the cost of the item). Also their secrecy about their charges; having to log in to view their offers; and the way they effectively recruit community figures into their commercial undertakings.
So if they want to become a proper store, holding stock for prompt delivery and offering their products openly, I'll be happy to support them and I'll be willing to accept an increase in their take in exchange for the better service. (I wonder if they might be persuaded to do that for drops that are only a few off the MOQ?) If they offered their services as individual items with standard published pricing, with the buy-runner still in charge of the overall process, that'd be fine too. Or if they operated on a non-profit basis, I'd put up with the delays and variations and maybe even the tiresome login requirement. But a "Eurodrop" that worked in the same way as Massdrop would still be unacceptable to me.

[chuckdee]

They aren't a proper store, though, and I don't think that they have any illusions on that part. It's in the name- they're organizing drops. And all drops take a cut on sales from what I understand. They're just a more reputable source of drops, and able to drive higher MOQs because of that. And you don't have to login- just put the ?mode=guest_open on the end if you don't want to login.

[XMIT]

[...]the way they effectively recruit community figures into their commercial undertakings.

This deserves some clarification.

There are pretty much two ways that they run drops:
1. Massdrop acts as a buyer for some existing bulk item.
2. Massdrop collaborates with some community member to serve as a sort of ODM/OEM.

Perhaps they are not very clear on the difference between the two with buyers, but, it is in effect a way for Massdrop to be able to order larger quantities and have more pull with a manufacturer while still working with the community in some way.

Perhaps the phrasing for this could be better? I think this can result in a better product if managed well.

[Wodan]

Regarding international shipping ... for most items their shipping to Germany is incredibly low! Many smaller items are shipped for less than 8$ which is close to what you pay for shipping here.

It's just difficult to understand why other items of similair size are suddenly so 3x the shipping and more. If you have a chance to get into their cheap shipping rates, that would be amazing.

[citrojohn]

[...]
2. Massdrop collaborates with some community member to serve as a sort of ODM/OEM.

And as a result, said community member may well be made to help protect Massdrop's commercial interests. Are you, or do you know if other people in your position are, able to divulge what Massdrop are paying for the keyboards and the amount they're taking on each? Is there some sort of exclusivity agreement by which you're not allowed to sell the keyboards by other means than Massdrop? (Your mention of "subvert[ing] my Massdrop partnership" suggests something like this may be occurring.) Considering the degree of risk I'd be taking as a buyer I'd expect any buy-runner to be able to tell me about what they're getting out of it and anything that might tie their hands, and I'm not inclined to exempt Massdrop-run buys from this merely because Massdrop wants to protect its margins.

[...]it is in effect a way for Massdrop to be able to order larger quantities and have more pull with a manufacturer while still working with the community in some way.

Yes, it's very good for them. It's the charge on the buyers, and the "partnership" with the buy-runners, that bothers me.

[...]you don't have to login- just put the ?mode=guest_open on the end if you don't want to login.

So I go to http://www.massdrop.com/?mode=guest_open , I click the Tech category, and up comes the login box. Yes, I know you can do the guest_open thing for individual items if you already know their URL, but it gives me no way of finding out what else Massdrop are offering.

[citrojohn]

Oh, by the way, I'd be willing to help with a later European drop; however, by the time the new drop happens the UK may be outside the European customs union, so you'll have to use your own judgment at the time as to how much use my offer is!

[XMIT]

So, pricing is hard. The community wants prices to be lower to make things more accessible. I want pricing to be higher because my time is valuable and I've invested a bunch of it in my projects. Massdrop wants to be able to take their cut as a value added middleman which is worth something to the community and to me. I don't think there is anything evil or mysterious going on here - it's business.

When I talk about subverting a partnership - really I don't want to be a jerk to the folks who are helping me deliver this project.

I'm not going to divulge my unit cost. Why? It's a misleading number. As a customer, you're not just paying for parts from a factory. You're paying for testing, for design improvements, for a written manual, for the sort of end to end project ownership that is better aligned with a community member than a factory. Also, you're paying for my long term relationship with the manufacturer, something that I've earned through five months, hundreds of e-mails back and forth, and slowly convincing them that I know what I'm talking about.

My own goals are to make enough money from keyboard sales to be able to re-invest some funds into future designs.

[elecplus]

My two experiences with Massdrop were terrible. 2 years ago, when I had a very large qty of NIB SSK and and fair qty of beam springs, Massdrop wanted them. They called me directly, and we agreed on a price. 10 days later I still did not even have a PO from them for the keyboards. After this happened twice, I did not communicate with them again. We had several phone calls and emails in those 10 days, and they kept giving various reasons (new personnel, new system, etc.). But in the end it just was a terrible experience, and I decided not to deal with them again. Yes, it would have been much easier on me to get my money up front and only ship to one place. But I am glad I kept them and sold directly to DT members; MD wanted to basically double the price I was charging.

[ohaimark]

1) Massdrop isn't screwing you. They're making things possible that would otherwise be impossible, delayed for years, or severely limited. They also add some accountability to the mix, even if it isn't perfect. That's what the "middleman fee" pays for. They're filling a market niche that other companies left untapped. Capitalism rocks.

2) If your country happens to suffer from high shipping costs, that's just bad luck. It isn't Massdrop's fault that you live overseas. If Massdrop screws up with shipping it's another story.

3) Bad experiences are bad experiences, no matter what light they're placed in. Our community does need a European Massdrop equivalent or branch, perhaps. Thankfully Massdrop has acknowledged the issues they've had with the DT community. They're working to build a better relationship with our forum, I think.

4) XMIT's pricing is fair, and I'll personally guarantee it. He has a lucrative career that makes his time particularly valuable to begin with. His technical skills and agency as an individual project lead will create unique, uncompromising, and superior products. A legitimate love for keyboards and sharing things with the community drives him. Frankly, he's one of the most egalitarian, skilled, and generous people I know. If anything, he's charging less than he should/could.

[zslane]

Personally, I disapprove of the way Massdrop operate as a commercial company when it suits them (...exploiting their position to get discounts from Signature Plastics)...

Signature Plastics is a manufacturing vendor and they have different kinds of business agreements depending on the type of customer you are. If you are an individual ordering a handful of something (25-50 units) once a year or so, then you get a tier of pricing appropriate for that level of commerce. If you are a medium-sized company ordering hundreds or thousands of units per month, then you get a very different kind of pricing (and service) contract. And if you are a very large company ordering hundreds of thousands of units, then you are in a category all your own and get their very best pricing and sit highest on their priority totem pole.

MassDrop is one of those medium-sized entities, and because they order so much and have full-time employees who serve as steady liaisons with vendors like SP, SP gives them a "partnership" deal with a discount tier to go with it. This is not "exploiting their position" it is simply accepting a deal that a vendor offers for participating at a particular level of business. You can only object to this if you object to basic capitalism.

I will, however, agree that MassDrop is not good at communicating with individuals who wish to work with them. Maybe it is part of their growing pains, I don't know, but getting SA Dasher/Dancer onto their drop schedule has been a mysterious process that still makes no sense to me. And it shouldn't be that way. There's no reason to keep potential designers/partners in the dark like they do.

But they do treat customers like gold, as they should. There will always be the occasional drop that goes bad, but the vast majority of them go smoothly. Europeans can object to shipping and customs costs all they want, but MassDrop has no control over any of that, and I suggest aiming your wrath at the shipping companies, not MassDrop.

[andrewjoy]

The only issue i have with MD is the price of international shipping.

Some of this i understand cannot be avoided

Its the inconsistency.



An idea , 90% of the stuff they have is from china , can they not ship the EU / rest of the world stuff direct form china ? China post is super cheap.

[chuckdee]

[...]you don't have to login- just put the ?mode=guest_open on the end if you don't want to login.

So I go to http://www.massdrop.com/?mode=guest_open , I click the Tech category, and up comes the login box. Yes, I know you can do the guest_open thing for individual items if you already know their URL, but it gives me no way of finding out what else Massdrop are offering.

You have to have the individual item. But at least they're offering that. Try other large scale warehouse type companies- they don't even have that. A lot of that has to do with negotiations. And if you want to be a part of the drop, you have to sign up too. So, at the point you're not a customer of MD. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[ohaimark]

An idea , 90% of the stuff they have is from china , can they not ship the EU / rest of the world stuff direct form china ? China post is super cheap.

Probably liability and infrastructure. If their shipper in China screws up, they don't have the same kind of control over the chain of custody. The Chinese shipper would probably charge them fees for handling/shipping as well.

They would still need to ship a certain amount of stock to the US in bulk anyways to handle replacements, returns, and other stuff. So from a business perspective it makes sense to keep shipping in house at a single location, which happens to be the US.

Ellipse is running his GB the same way, shipping all keyboards back to the US and then internationally. It's the same way that big companies distribute their stuff. Massdrop should really plunk a regional warehouse in Europe somewhere and call it a day, but they're still a young company so the international thing is a bit of a leap for them.

[citrojohn]

Did I look like I was suspicious about XMIT's integrity? I didn't mean to - please accept my apologies if I did, XMIT. I have no doubts at all about XMIT; it's Massdrop I'm sceptical about.

I think all the things XMIT mentions would be allowed for in the price Massdrop pay the supplier (either XMIT or the Chinese manufacturer - I don't need to know which). In fact I don't really need to know the actual price they pay. My point is: would Massdrop allow you to reveal that price, and the fee they're taking? Would they let you sell the keyboards yourself while the drop was going on? I suspect they wouldn't let you do either of these; which amounts to them requiring you to prioritise protecting their business over informing the community, as a price of them handling your drop. Now you may say that as a business they need to protect their business model; and that takes us back to my problem with Massdrop picking and choosing the bits of being a business that happen to be convenient for them.

zslane: I don't object to SP offering the discount or Massdrop accepting it; as you say, that's how business operates. I mentioned it as an example of a circumstance in which Massdrop act like the business they are, in contrast to the way they act when it comes to holding stock or insulating their customers from minor price rises. What I object to is the contrast; if they wanted to be consistent either way (acting as a real online store, or as a non-profit community enterprise), I'd have no serious problem with them.

chuckdee: From an individual customer's point of view Massdrop isn't a large-scale warehouse company - a store like mechanicalkeyboards.com or a community group buy would be closer. Neither of those require logins to see the items on offer. Granted it's a minor annoyance in comparison with the other things, but it's one more hurdle for a buyer to clear.

I doubt anyone is going to be won round by this. We have our principled positions: Massdrop's behaviour bothers me enough to stop me from buying through them, it doesn't bother others or not to that extent. I have full confidence in XMIT, I'm happy he's going to be rewarded for his valuable contribution, and I'll be pleased to buy directly from him either in an individual transaction or as part of a community group buy. And Massdrop know what to do to get my business: behave like a real store, allow community members to use their services without compromising their ability to communicate with the community, or run a non-profit operation.

[chuckdee]

An idea , 90% of the stuff they have is from china , can they not ship the EU / rest of the world stuff direct form china ? China post is super cheap.

Logistics is the reason. Note that they say the bulk order first.. then they ship it from distribution.

[zslane]

zslane: I don't object to SP offering the discount or Massdrop accepting it; as you say, that's how business operates. I mentioned it as an example of a circumstance in which Massdrop act like the business they are, in contrast to the way they act when it comes to holding stock or insulating their customers from minor price rises. What I object to is the contrast; if they wanted to be consistent either way (acting as a real online store, or as a non-profit community enterprise), I'd have no serious problem with them.

Fair enough.

However, I think there may be a misperception as to exactly what MassDrop is. They aren't a traditional online retail outlet. They aren't a non-profit community outreach program. They are an online group buying business that deals in custom products that typically only get made to order for a very tiny niche customer base. The key words there are "made to order" and "niche".

The fact that they often offer drops for things you can also find at more traditional online retail sites should not fool you into thinking they are (or are trying to be) like mechanicalkeyboards.com or Amazon. They are a members-only group buy clearing house where their large membership base provides for deeper discounts and better chances of reaching vendor MOQ thresholds. They don't carry stock, and they only inventory a small amount of extra product to cover customer support issues.

We have to think of MassDrop as something a little different than your conventional online store, at least for now. Let's complain about them being a poor Amazon.com only after they actually start trying to be an Amazon.com.

[citrojohn]

[...] We have to think of MassDrop as something a little different than your conventional online store, at least for now. Let's complain about them being a poor Amazon.com only after they actually start trying to be an Amazon.com.

They sure are different from a store.
Aspects of their behaviour are very like Amazon's. But I agree, they fill a niche unserviced by other outlets - it's just they fill it in a way I object to.