Let's All Be Terribly Civil and Sip Tea and Talk About Europe

[kbdfr]

WARNING: COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC POST

[…] the F..ing EU.. […]

[rant]

I can’t bear such statements anymore.

You guys don’t only have no clue, but obviously cannot even imagine how it was before the EC/EU existed.
One had to pay taxes and customs for everything imported from any other country. You were controlled every time you crossed any border, which by the way you couldn’t with just an ID card, but only with a passport which had to be duly stamped.
Each country had its own currency, and exchange fees were way higher than the taxes you now complain about.
Spain and Portugal were still governed by dictators inherited from World War II.
Only a few European countries had abolished the death penalty.
Women did not have nearly equal rights.
Beating children was not only a common, but also a fully lawful practice.

Nowadays things are far from perfect, of course, but this "F..ing EU" has tremendously improved also your living conditions.

[/rant]

[webwit]

The EEC was good, but the EU has become a monster over time.

[KRKS]

deleted

[kbdfr]

I won't challenge that, but it's not a matter of the EU having changed,
it's a matter of a certain economic system assuming it has won a deserved victory
when in fact it just remained there when the other one collapsed.

And still the EU is a real, huge, tremendous progress compared to the world we had before.

[Muirium]

Politicsthority: my favourite!

Feel free to ignore this wall of text…

I used to be a true believer in the EU until a couple of years ago. The freedom of movement, in travel, work, and goods is a profound improvement on the bollocks we had before, even between friendly western countries, quite beyond the Soviet nightmare. I'm that rare thing: a fan of the Euro, over here on the isle of pounds and pence. I've lived cheek by jowl with Poles and Romanians aplenty, and it's all good. Of course, even before that I grew up with Pakistanis too. Big city liberal. Albeit a fairly little one with a very obvious glass cieling for our immigrants, who struggle to get into the financial services racket that owns the town.

So what changed my mind?

First there was the disgraceful way the big boys treated Greece in the bailout. (Portugal didn't get much better, frankly, but the media can only juggle one ball at a time.) Oddly enough, I sympathize with Angela Merkel and I reckon she's the one thing keeping the EU together right now. But understanding her position, and the large nations angry, entitled citizens, didn't help me swallow the pill that Europe had beaten the shit out of one of its own. That hard shakedown was not what this club was meant to be about. We handled bad, apparently impossible, shit before. But not like this. Our current generation of politicians really don't mind inflicting direct human suffering any more. And polling says their nations support it. What the duck?

Second, there was our independence referendum here in Scotland. We heard encouraging things for the Yes side from Catalans and Basques but bugger all else. Understandable, as EU governments have relations with London they want to maintain, but none with us in Edinburgh. (One of the many reasons for independence, in itself.) But Madrid went absolutely balls to the wall during the campaign. They promised to veto any Scottish application to enter the EU on independence, which the No side ran with hard. Domestic Spanish fears of Catalan independence drove them to that dirty move, I imagine. Yet what was worse was the wave of open relief and congratulation for David Cameron across Europe once the narrow No result was in. Back to blessed business as usual. It was clear that European leaders saw it entirely as a test for him, our remotely elected Tory leader who 85% of Scots never voted for, rather than a matter of nationhood and history for us. We didn't exist. Classy, guys, you did notice that 45% of us want out of Britain, and we are a lot younger than the 55%, who we duly beat up in the next year's election? Like everything in Europe, this story's far from over.

And then finally Syria, the end of free movement for all skin colours, and the Muslim hating wave that's sloshing across the continent. My god, is Europe playing this badly. We should be welcoming those millions of migrants around our great continent. They're hopeful, and yes by and large middle classed people with skills Europe needs. And yet we've listened to the whispers in our ear from the Charlie Hebdo murderers and the Bataclan butchers. We're hypnotized by the same End Times delusion that beats as Isis heart.

What the living fuck are we doing?

When I read about 1914 as a teen, I was amazed at how dumb every nation in Europe was to enter that human grinder of a war. I just couldn't understand it. The Berlin Wall was down at the time and we were up to things like peace in Northern Ireland and even Palestine! It seemed like history had marched on far since then.

But now I not so sure. The world has gone to shit since 2000. I'm not a pessimist or a conspiracy riven nut, and I do hope things will get back on track in time. But we're in a weird throwback right now, and still just as capable as ever of piling mistakes on mistakes all too high.

That's not to say I'm for leaving the EU. But I'm very wary of its mismanagement now indeed.

[TuxKey]

Feel free to ignore this wall of text… nope Sound interesting.
wil have to read it tomorrow .. my wife is calling me ... that's what happens when your the it guy grrrr..hahaha

[davkol]

derp

[photekq]

We should be welcoming those millions of migrants around our great continent. They're hopeful, and yes by and large middle classed people with skills Europe needs. And yet we've listened to the whispers in our ear from the Charlie Hebdo murderers and the Bataclan butchers. We're hypnotized by the same End Times delusion that beats as Isis heart.

You had me up to this point..

[chzel]

What would you suggest photekq?
They are coming to Europe. There is no stopping that, unless we start sinking boats. Greece (and Italy) have vast sea borders and Turkey doesn't seem willing/able to stop the refugees from getting on a boat.
Should we let them on the boats until they starve or sink? Do we rescue them? And after we rescue them what? Put them in camps until somehow we manage to send them back? Or act like actual empathetic human beings and try to help them live a modest life?
Apparently you believe immigration is an issue. What makes certain immigrants unwanted? Who is to decide?
Should the United States have refused German and Irish immigrants?
If I get a job and come to the UK for a year or 10, am I not an immigrant? Should I be denied access?

Also don't forget that most of these people are not just economic migrants. They are refugees, they are fleeing war.
Yes, there will be some that will try to take advantage of the situation, but that has to be sorted after they arrive.
EU can't just look the other side and impose border controls when Greece in January was getting on average 3500 arrivals EACH DAY. (http://reliefweb.int/report/greece/gree ... 1-feb-2016).

[webwit]

Love to help refugees, my father taught me why (he lived in WWII). But empathy is not the reason we're letting them in. Macro economics is. The rest is just clouding that issue. It's an old game. The US is doing it, showing on one hand how tough they are at the Mexican border, while in reality letting a controlled amount in. War is not a current thing, it's been going on forever, apparently we cared less before, yet it's now that we let much bigger floods in among much propaganda. I find that interesting. It's because cheap labor import is an important thing in neo liberal economic growth and apparently deemed very important at this point in time. If we keep it technical and not about religion and cultural differences, the problem is the saying "socialize the costs, privatize the profits". The costs (not only monetary) of importing are for the tax payers. The profits are for the 1%. At the same time there's a downward pressure on wages for the common man. In yesteryear's world one person could buy a house and provide for a family with a normal job. Now families with two incomes hardly do better, while the 1% grabs more than ever. That is what we should worry about. If we could fix that (fat chance), we could even give jobs to real refugees which aren't underpaid.

[chzel]

You are absolutely correct, I just referred to the humanitarian aspect of the issue, because we are dealing with lives here, regardless of the agendas of the ruling few.

[webwit]

Before, those lives were deemed save in the surrounding countries, like it has been done for the vast majority of refugees in all those African wars. Then we get the propaganda of poor conditions in those refugees camps (cue to flee invested underfed kid), and they ask for our money. Now they travel all the way to Germany, Sweden, etc. That difference. It even continues at this very point. Fucked up places like Congo. There have been millions on the run only there, continuing today. We get them too, but relatively much less. So we are selectively played on our emotions.

[livingspeedbump]

Politicsthority: my favourite!

Feel free to ignore this wall of text…

I used to be a true believer in the EU until a couple of years ago. The freedom of movement, in travel, work, and goods is a profound improvement on the bollocks we had before, even between friendly western countries, quite beyond the Soviet nightmare. I'm that rare thing: a fan of the Euro, over here on the isle of pounds and pence. I've lived cheek by jowl with Poles and Romanians aplenty, and it's all good. Of course, even before that I grew up with Pakistanis too. Big city liberal. Albeit a fairly little one with a very obvious glass cieling for our immigrants, who struggle to get into the financial services racket that owns the town.

So what changed my mind?

First there was the disgraceful way the big boys treated Greece in the bailout. (Portugal didn't get much better, frankly, but the media can only juggle one ball at a time.) Oddly enough, I sympathize with Angela Merkel and I reckon she's the one thing keeping the EU together right now. But understanding her position, and the large nations angry, entitled citizens, didn't help me swallow the pill that Europe had beaten the shit out of one of its own. That hard shakedown was not what this club was meant to be about. We handled bad, apparently impossible, shit before. But not like this. Our current generation of politicians really don't mind inflicting direct human suffering any more. And polling says their nations support it. What the duck?

Second, there was our independence referendum here in Scotland. We heard encouraging things for the Yes side from Catalans and Basques but bugger all else. Understandable, as EU governments have relations with London they want to maintain, but none with us in Edinburgh. (One of the many reasons for independence, in itself.) But Madrid went absolutely balls to the wall during the campaign. They promised to veto any Scottish application to enter the EU on independence, which the No side ran with hard. Domestic Spanish fears of Catalan independence drove them to that dirty move, I imagine. Yet what was worse was the wave of open relief and congratulation for David Cameron across Europe once the narrow No result was in. Back to blessed business as usual. It was clear that European leaders saw it entirely as a test for him, our remotely elected Tory leader who 85% of Scots never voted for, rather than a matter of nationhood and history for us. We didn't exist. Classy, guys, you did notice that 45% of us want out of Britain, and we are a lot younger than the 55%, who we duly beat up in the next year's election? Like everything in Europe, this story's far from over.

And then finally Syria, the end of free movement for all skin colours, and the Muslim hating wave that's sloshing across the continent. My god, is Europe playing this badly. We should be welcoming those millions of migrants around our great continent. They're hopeful, and yes by and large middle classed people with skills Europe needs. And yet we've listened to the whispers in our ear from the Charlie Hebdo murderers and the Bataclan butchers. We're hypnotized by the same End Times delusion that beats as Isis heart.

What the living fuck are we doing?

When I read about 1914 as a teen, I was amazed at how dumb every nation in Europe was to enter that human grinder of a war. I just couldn't understand it. The Berlin Wall was down at the time and we were up to things like peace in Northern Ireland and even Palestine! It seemed like history had marched on far since then.

But now I not so sure. The world has gone to shit since 2000. I'm not a pessimist or a conspiracy riven nut, and I do hope things will get back on track in time. But we're in a weird throwback right now, and still just as capable as ever of piling mistakes on mistakes all too high.

That's not to say I'm for leaving the EU. But I'm very wary of its mismanagement now indeed.

This is easily one of the best things I've read in a good while.

[Muirium]

Thanks. I'm surprised I even had Photekq aboard for half the ride, our politics differ quite a bit!

Webwit's point about the true motive behind accepting migration being profit is both true and false. Sitting back with a beer here in California as I type this, the United States certainly did well from its epic immigration over the centuries. Everyone I meet here has ancestry stretched across the world. Indeed, most everyone in urban California isn't even from the state, but out east, migrating within their own country for economic gain. The result here is a vast middle class, with enormous economic power all its own. It's certainly one vision of the global future that capitalism was meant to be all about, as the century turned. As obsolete as it seemed, right after 9/11 and Iraq, The End of History thrives quite nicely in the Pacific sun.

Here's the thing about migrants: they're go getters. They had to pay to leave. The Europeans and the Asians who flocked to America weren't the starving poor. Those people were stuck were they were, and died. America's immigrants were the middle class, down on their luck in the old country, and willing to risk everything they had left on a new start over here. They didn't waste any time. America is theirs, in blood and brick, just as much as it is George Washington's.

Millions of Syrians politely stayed at home and were murdered like cattle. The ones who fled to Turkey (which cannot handle them and has plenty of its own problems) and who make their way to Europe are the lucky ones, the resourceful, the educated, the lifeblood of our own revival in sleepy old Europe, our potential to dust ourselves off and compete again with the US and China for the direction of the world.

Here's a good extract from a couple of focus groups in Warsaw and Sofia commissioned by England's favourite billionaire tax dodger and pollster: Michael Ashcroft. Regarding David Cameron's negotiations with the EU for special status for his country to shaft other European citizens on its soil over benefits.

Would these changes to the benefits system discourage Poles and Bulgarians from going to Britain? “The gypsies, maybe”. “Most people don’t go there for the social welfare, they go for professional realisation. And why should they get social welfare? They should go there and work.”

Exactly. People move for opportunity, not the dole.

[webwit]

Indeed, most everyone in urban California isn't even from the state

Oblig. Sitting Bull agrees.

[Muirium]

Ah come on, there's plenty of Indians here in San Diego. They're from Caltech.


Offtopic: I just noticed the keyboard at the top of this thread. The first pic looks good and slabby. Apparently heavy metal is in fashion right now. Kinda glad my HHKB isn't, with all this lap-typing I'm up to…

[matt3o]

I wanted to say something about the K-type but now I realize it would be off-topic

[Spikebolt]

Spain and Portugal were still governed by dictators inherited from World War II.

To be fair it wasn't EEC or EU that ended our dictatorship, it was the portuguese people rebelling against the system.

I'm sure life used to be way harder back then that shouldn't prevent anyone from having critical thinking. The EU has helped Portugal immensely and even though it's not a popular opinion, they have recently saved us from bankruptcy! Doesn't mean that EU is perfect, correct on all matters or that we should submit to their every thought/decision. Everyone European leader is playing their game in the way that suits their local interests the best.

I have mixed feelings about the refugees. Of course I am not against helping the people in need but I feel it's a bit ridiculous that we don't have budget to take (all) portuguese poor people out of the street but we have budget to give foreign people homes and jobs.

[kbdfr]

Spain and Portugal were still governed by dictators inherited from World War II.

To be fair it wasn't EEC or EU that ended our dictatorship, it was the portuguese people rebelling against the system.

I know. I was born long before that
And I didn't question that. Read my post:

[…]
You guys don’t only have no clue, but obviously cannot even imagine how it was before the EC/EU existed.
[…]
Spain and Portugal were still governed by dictators inherited from World War II.
[…]

And - thanks especially to webwit for elaborating on the economical causes of the situation.

[7bit]

I could not read the whole thread,
but I demand a keyboard product is to be boycotted if they use poor, one-armed refugee children who have to solder them together in a dark, rotten ex-East German factory building, located somewhere in the middle of Saxonia, where at any time, their refugee camp can be burned down by Neo-Nazis.

[davkol]

derp

[tentator]

So we are selectively played on our emotions.

Interesting keyboard thread I must admit.. and couldn't refrain from quoting webwit on the above sentence!!!

tent:wq

[pcaro]

Please, well loved Deskthority admins: Rename this post .... or move the European comments out. If not, I'll be forced to express my view ...

[The Demongolator]

The Demongolator can't believe, he had to interrupt his winter hibernation to demongolate this thread!

[7bit]

The EEC was good, but the EU has become a monster over time.

Yes, the general idea is still great, but it is often padly done, including too few democracy. A 100% democratic EU (without councils etc.) where people can vote for or against something, would be ideal.

To be a bit more on topic:
The EU has almost nothing to do with customs fees. It depends on the member countries how much you have to pay (15 or 27% VAT, for example, plus some extra fees).


On the other hand, VAT is to be paid for everything within our countries, so it is only fair to take VAT for products from outside as well. But then. there should be an easier way to handle this and there should be a higher free-limit, for instance a specific amount which can be declared as Gift without any questions asked!

[scottc]

WARNING: TOTALLY NORMAL DESKTHORITY CARRY-ON

I don't think we need a warning for off-topic!

[XMIT]

At least you have fast trains.

[ohaimark]

American car culture prevents most of us from using public transportation, which is idiocy. Only the big cities seem to have caught on, and that's simply necessity.

Now, even if public transport were available, I'd want to keep a vehicle to run errands that were time sensitive. But my daily commute would happily transition to buses or trains.

[andrewjoy]

Europe is an amazing idea but the implementation is poor and the people running it are idiots. It also does not have a clue what its doing when it comes to the so called migrant crisis.

The big economies have been propping up the (and i know this sounds harsh) loser countries who had no place in the EEC or EU to begin with. The way the EU handled it was off, how is raping there economy even more before you give them a bail out going to help anyone?

And then you have loads of migrants attempting to enter the EU, the extent to which they are economic migrants or true refugees is not know, i am all for helping refugees of conflicts around the world but i don't think its appropriate to have economic migrants coming to the EU when we have our own problems to sort out first. The mass flow of migrants has caused other issues as many of them come from ( quite frankly backwards) cultures where terrible things are considered OK and yet European leaders are too scared to say anything because they are terrified of being called racist. This mindset is dangerous as we saw in Rochdale. I am not saying all migrants are like this, that would be insane but its an example of European leaders not being able to act or even raise an issue without it tripping over its own feet.

( Your all going to think i am a terrible right wing tump supporter now but i am not , its just the majority of the so called left are so far left you cannot see them anymore if you just a normal liberal).

The resent news with David " The Pig Fucker" Cameron trying to renegotiate with the EU is so sad, the rule of not paying people from the EU in work benefits for doing the same goddam job as someone else who was born in the UK is disgusting and may be even against UK and EU employment law. We never asked him to renegotiate! Hey if it happens at least this pay gap will exist unlike the so called gender pay gap we keep hearing about.

Europe does have its advantages , freedom of movement and all that good stuff , and i want to stay part of EU but i just think that it needs to get more competent leaders and grow some balls. Hell the Arts organisation i work for would not even exists without the EU and we have workers form all over coming to us to work and do interesting projects and what not. Without the freedom of movement and the freedom to work that would not be possible. ( I don' t know anything about art i just try ( and i do mean try ) to keep all the macs and old systems and window and linux servers working together. Spoiler its always Apples fault! )

[fohat]

When I read about 1914 as a teen, I was amazed at how dumb every nation in Europe was to enter that human grinder of a war. I just couldn't understand it. The Berlin Wall was down at the time and we were up to things like peace in Northern Ireland and even Palestine! It seemed like history had marched on far since then.

But now I not so sure. The world has gone to shit since 2000. I'm not a pessimist or a conspiracy riven nut, and I do hope things will get back on track in time. But we're in a weird throwback right now, and still just as capable as ever of piling mistakes on mistakes all too high.

War is the problem, and always has been. How Bush Jr managed to sell his Iraq invasion justifications to this country is still a mystery to me, although by that time most of the mass media in the US had been consolidated under radical-right control.

I will take issue with your absurd equating of modern immigrants with George Washington (my 8th cousin, 7 times removed, under whom at least a dozen of my g-g-g-g-g-great-grandfathers served). My ancestors imagined, built, and defended this country's birth and continued existence. Modern immigrants are merely taking advantage of it.

The reason that I am enraged about the "immigrant crisis" is that modern transportation (even rusty leaking boats) and communication results prompting people to simply leave wherever they live and abandoning it to the bad guys.