AlpineFox Interest Check (Alps based project)

[matt3o]

You may be aware of my 65% project, the WhiteFox. It's a keyboard I'm working on since last year now. After months of prototyping we are finally ready to push it into the market. It will include anodized CNC case, PCB, PBT keycaps, feet, braided micro-usb cable and --if you need them-- MX switches. The keyboard will support 6 layouts including 1 ISO.

I originally also wanted to work on an Alps variant and recently Muirium contacted me asking about it.

Since we are close to production with the WhiteFox it could be possible to use some of its parts to build an Alps variant, hence the AlpineFox. If there's really interest it might be a good time to talk about it and I'm interested in having your feedback regarding:

- keycaps
- stabilizers
- layouts
- switches

I believe the easiest and most compatible layout to support would be the following



Honestly I believe that the project could be feasible if we reach at least a 25-50 tier.

[scottc]

YES! 1000 times yes.

Keycaps - may be nice, but SP's prices suck for the quality of DCS. Tai-Hao are also available and at a much lower price.
Stabs - Tai-Hao seems to have solved this with the V60 etc. Maybe we could use the same strategy as them?
Layouts - everything mentioned in the other thread is fantastic. I personally prefer 1.75U shift layouts, of course.
Switches - I'd prefer to salvage switches from nice vintage boards, but Matias quiet/clicky/linear would be a nice alternative to people who can't.

[matt3o]

okay first problem: plate thickness. As per specifications Alps plate is 1.2mm while cherry MX is 1.5mm. The whitefox case doesn't work well with 1.2mm top plate. I have a feeling that alps would work on 1.5mm as well but I'm not 100% sure. Can anyone confirm?

[Muirium]

Someone answer that man! I have Alps boards, but none are disassembled and I don't have precision measuring gear.

Anyway, naturally, I am so in on this! My preferred source caps are Apple Extended Keyboard layout though. Can we talk vintage caps vs. new stuff? I've got vintage switches and stabs to match.

[scottc]

That's a very good point, I imagine many Alps enthusiasts will want to source parts from Apple boards.

[jbondeson]

okay first problem: plate thickness. As per specifications Alps plate is 1.2mm while cherry MX is 1.5mm. The whitefox case doesn't work well with 1.2mm top plate. I have a feeling that alps would work on 1.5mm as well but I'm not 100% sure. Can anyone confirm?

If no one gets to it before I get home tonight I'll take some calipers to the various alps plates I have.

Anyway, naturally, I am so in on this! My preferred source caps are Apple Extended Keyboard layout though. Can we talk vintage caps vs. new stuff? I've got vintage switches and stabs to match.

For these types of layouts it's going to be really tough to reuse apple modifiers on the bottom row. Unless you coopt a short spacebar from an M0116/8 to get the extra space for the 1.5 mods.

[Muirium]

Perhaps if we push the spacebar to the right and drop a mod from the right to make some room? Or alternatively drop a mod from the left?

I for one can put up with two mods either side of the spacebar (HHKB style) or three on the left plus one on the right. Much easier for me than sourcing a matching, smaller spacebar.

[andrewjoy]

I am interested in a small alps board but not in that layout

pure 60% unix layout for me

[jbondeson]

Perhaps if we push the spacebar to the right and drop a mod from the right to make some room? Or alternatively drop a mod from the left?

I for one can put up with two mods either side of the spacebar (HHKB style) or three on the left plus one on the right. Much easier for me than sourcing a matching, smaller spacebar.

Yeah, if we went 1.5, 1.5, 6.5, 1.5, 1.5 it would work (dropping opt/alt), and due to the extra 0.25 length on an AEKII spacebar you'd only have a 0.5 shift in your spacebar and the gap remains in the same place.

[stratokaster]

I will be very interested in a compact Alps board, but I'd like to reuse beautiful PBT keycaps from my Alps keyboards — and it seems there is no way to do this with this layout.

[matt3o]

we are bound to the size of the whitefox case, but any layout that fits that case works for me. Just cast a motivated suggestion

[andrewjoy]

Do SP do alps caps ? I wonder how much cost it would be to do a small scale 7 bit style group buy. The problem would be the big ass enter. ANSI ISO and UNIX would not be a problem

[Muirium]

I'm really not interested in more SP caps. I'd rather use vintage classics. There's lots of superb Alps caps out there. The keyboards they're on cost less than what you'll pay for mediocre caps alone from SP.

[matt3o]

SGI granite would be the easiest option. We just need to change the mods size, but everything would work out of the box.

[andrewjoy]

But you know what your getting from SP and you can chose the layout and so on, sure a SGI would be an amazing donor board as would AEK, but how many are out there? Vintage > new caps for the most part , but you generally have more options with new caps. If i could get a true set of pure ANSI cherry PBT i would use them over my current imsto , but you ether have to have used and or incomplete sets or pay insane price.

And i i did have an SGI with good clean caps , i would not butcher it for a 60%

[JotaCe]

Will the plate/case support split backspace and split right-shift?

[tigpha]

Someone answer that man! I have Alps boards, but none are disassembled and I don't have precision measuring gear.

Apple M0116 has 1.2mm plate; Apple M3501 also has 1.2mm plate. Measured with an 0.02mm vernier.

I tried to see if an ALPS ivory switch would latch into a 1.5mm plate. It's feasible, but not a great fit: the "wings" hold only by the very tips. The key might be prone to slip out of the aperture, unless the edges of the hole are sharp.

[Muirium]

Thanks for measuring. Looks like 1.2 is the place to be. Anyone know if this is also true for Montereys? Matteo likes them. Although they need different PCB holes and maybe a different plate, just for the cut out. They share Alps mount for the caps, but everything else about those guys is all Monterey.


Re: SGI. I have one. And I'll gladly borrow its caps if I need to. The spacebar is a bit yellow, which is the only problem. I can leave the switches and the keyboard proper just fine. So long as my Alps stabs work with those caps.

I'd rather use AEK caps though. Options are good! And anyone tasteless enough to want to put hybrid Alps MX DCS on their board can choose a layout that's compatible with the vintage boys. You youngsters have more options, like you said, to fit into our plans!

[matt3o]

If the plate must be 1.2mm then we have to rebuild the case anyway and we can't make good use of the work already done for the whitefox.

The alternative at this point would be to start from scratch with an ALPS project and I'd take back "bianca" for that (revised of course)

[pyrelink]

I think Whitefox should be finished as is, as its too good of a project and too much work put in to try and reboot it into an alps board now. But I would love to see Bianca revised into an alps board as another project, and I am 100% for alps. New keycaps would be my preference however getting an alps keyset off the ground alone, is no easy feat.

[matt3o]

a bianca-like keyboard would require new keycaps anyway

[pyrelink]

ah, true. I would like to see a Bianca anything, and alps is coming back into style so I see no reason not to pursue a Bianca Alps board*



*aside from the issues of producing an alps keyset, and popular interest in the Bianca layout and style, MoQ, and all that other boring stuff.

[Muirium]

To be clear, this interest check came about because of my pestering for it at an opportune time. WhiteFox is in production, and I asked Matteo if we could squeeze an Alps custom alongside it! The appeal of using as many WhiteFox parts as possible is strong, but Alps' different plate thickness is apparently a red light on that idea. Ah well.

Fortunately, Bianca is a great alternative strategy. Well, if we can figure out how to be flexible enough to use vintage caps as an option alongside SP moderns. What are the constraints I should know before I get busy on my layout?

[matt3o]

whatever layout we choose for bianca, there are too many custom mods to be able to use vintage keycaps (starting from the spacebars... 1x4? 2x4? 4x1.75? ...)

[pcaro]

Bianca? I could not find it in the wiki and I really like that botton row

[Muirium]

Bianca is Matteo's own creation.

If we can design a few alternative Alps plates within the 15x5 unit frame, Alpine Bianca is a tasty idea. I'll know more in a month about what caps options I've got. But all of them will require stabs for the spacebar at least.

Spoiler:

Cindy sold me an Alps mount set harvested from an ANSI AppleDesign Keyboard. Digging around, they could well be these guys:


That's a pretty standard 15x5 unit ANSI 60% block on the first 4 rows, with symmetrical 1.5-1.25-1.5 u mods around a 6.5 unit spacebar down at the bottom. I can handle stabless mods if I need to, but the spacebar will need something. And that's true for all my Alps caps.

[jbondeson]

I checked mine as well last night and got the same results as tigpha, it's a 1.2mm plate.

So the other option would be a milled plate that was 1.5mm at the edges and 1.2mm at the cutouts. Naturally that would make the plate more expensive than a laser cut uniform-thickness one.

[matt3o]

I checked mine as well last night and got the same results as tigpha, it's a 1.2mm plate.

So the other option would be a milled plate that was 1.5mm at the edges and 1.2mm at the cutouts. Naturally that would make the plate more expensive than a laser cut uniform-thickness one.

unfortunately that would be too expensive.

[Muirium]

What's the precise problem with using a thinner plate with the White Fox design? Nothing we could fix with sneaky washers?

I believe Alps have a different distance between PCB and plate than MX, too. So it could definitely be tricky.

[vivalarevolución]

Interested.