deskthority

If it's not tough enough, will bend it untill it becomes

If it won't fit, I might try to solve it somehow...

macboarder wrote: Well, I just got this thing and my Alps appreciation (high enough already) skyrocketed

Nice, yes you should be able to appreciate Alps SKCM when using that, you might have to put in some work with the switches if they're really dirty and worn. That should be well worth the effort in that case.

What is it that causes some Alps switches to click on the upstroke?
I'm attempting to silence some Oranges by swapping in damped white sliders, and while I've killed the bottoming and topping out noises, there's still a loud and noticeable clicking just after the tactile release on the upstroke. It might not be a problem with all switches, as I'm not getting it on a loose SKCM Orange that I'm using as a control group. But there's no visual difference between the two sliders, so I'm guessing... maybe wear on the tactile leaf?

atrere wrote: What is it that causes some Alps switches to click on the upstroke?
I'm attempting to silence some Oranges by swapping in damped white sliders, and while I've killed the bottoming and topping out noises, there's still a loud and noticeable clicking just after the tactile release on the upstroke. It might not be a problem with all switches, as I'm not getting it on a loose SKCM Orange that I'm using as a control group. But there's no visual difference between the two sliders, so I'm guessing... maybe wear on the tactile leaf?

I'm also curious.
I have a bag full of ivory ones, and the upstroke is clicky. Can't figure out what to do with them.

Lynx_Carpathica wrote:

atrere wrote: What is it that causes some Alps switches to click on the upstroke?
I'm attempting to silence some Oranges by swapping in damped white sliders, and while I've killed the bottoming and topping out noises, there's still a loud and noticeable clicking just after the tactile release on the upstroke. It might not be a problem with all switches, as I'm not getting it on a loose SKCM Orange that I'm using as a control group. But there's no visual difference between the two sliders, so I'm guessing... maybe wear on the tactile leaf?

I'm also curious.
I have a bag full of ivory ones, and the upstroke is clicky. Can't figure out what to do with them.

I believe I may have diagnosed it. For a while I had been looking at possible flaws in the tactile leaf, but once I looked at the switchplate, it became apparent. In this particular case, the small bit of metal that bends over the top of the switchplate to hold the leaf onto the switchplate was bent outwards a fair bit more than the one on my SKCM Orange that did not click on the upstroke. So I bent this inwards, reassembled it, and the upstroke click is gone.
I can see this occuring on a number of switches, because if one fumbles a bit while assembling or reassembling an Alps switch, that particular part of the switchplate can catch on the tabs that hold the top and bottom shell together, and become altered.
So give that a shot.
Now to go on to experimenting with dry lube...

it sill clicks... What the hell is wrong with theese switches?
but at least i get some continuity now xD

Try changing sliders? I had some switches that clicked on the upstroke, and I tried changing sliders between them, and some would simply work for some reason. Can't tell why. I will also now look for the deformed contact leaf. If that's the case with mine, I will be simultaneously mad and happy, because W T F

Also, does anyone know if there's any subtle differences between Alps sliders? Not including the symmetrical green and such, but like,the smoothness of the plastic and any changes in the angle of the rounded edge? I haven't been able to notice any, but I haven't exactly tested it scientifically.

I believe that Alps switched to a more slippery, translucent plastic in the late 80's, and a change in slider color coincided with this.

Would it be possible that a 1st gen SKCM/L would be smoother with post-transition slider, then?
From a few limited experiments, it does not seem to be the case, but I'm only fooling around with a few switches.
Additionally, I'm finding that teflon dry lubricant is actually making the switches feel a bit scratchier, which is... something, alright.

I don't think so, the consensus is that the lubricated 1st gen switches feel better than the later ones.

Also, YMMV when you lubricate the switches, from what I've seen. It's too bad that the original lubricant used for the 1st gen switches has yet to be discovered.

seebart wrote:

Hypersphere wrote: I might do a brief review after I get caught up on work.

Please do. I still have a NeXT sitting at Mu's, he's obviously got other things to take care of. I don't care much for the vertical ISO return key variations. The horizontal ANSI solution is better. One of the most interesting return key variations I own is on the Zenith ZKB-2, it's like a hybrid of both.

wiki/Zenith_ZKB-2

There are two of these Zenith ZKB-2 boards newly up on eBay. One has a plastic back and the other has a metal back.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Zenith- ... SwvzRX10T4
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Zenith- ... Sw4shX2Cu9
I think that the caps on the plastic-back version are doubleshot. Does anyone know about the caps on the metal-back one? I recall seeing a post somewhere saying that they were dye-sub ABS -- is that possible?

Hypersphere wrote: There are two of these Zenith ZKB-2 boards newly up on eBay. One has a plastic back and the other has a metal back.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Zenith- ... SwvzRX10T4
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Zenith- ... Sw4shX2Cu9
I think that the caps on the plastic-back version are doubleshot. Does anyone know about the caps on the metal-back one? I recall seeing a post somewhere saying that they were dye-sub ABS -- is that possible?

This is mine, it does have the metal back.Switches are Alps SKCL Green, a very nice keyboard. Get one if you can.

wiki/Zenith_ZKB-2

seebart wrote:

Hypersphere wrote: There are two of these Zenith ZKB-2 boards newly up on eBay. One has a plastic back and the other has a metal back.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Zenith- ... SwvzRX10T4
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Zenith- ... Sw4shX2Cu9
I think that the caps on the plastic-back version are doubleshot. Does anyone know about the caps on the metal-back one? I recall seeing a post somewhere saying that they were dye-sub ABS -- is that possible?

This is mine, it does have the metal back. The keycaps are Dye dublimated ABS. Switches are Alps SKCL Green, a very nice keyboard.

wiki/Zenith_ZKB-2

Interesting. I didn't know that dye sublimation was done on ABS plastic. Which Alps switches are in your Zenith?

Hypersphere wrote: Interesting. I didn't know that dye sublimation was done on ABS plastic.

Trust me, I'm no expert on keycap printing. I still can't tell after four years. And I'm quite sceptical when someone says they know for sure but don't say how they can tell. I don't remember who called the printing on the ZKB-2, I did not and it might be wrong.

Hypersphere wrote: Which Alps switches are in your Zenith?

Alps SKCL Green.

The ZKB-2 has ABS doubleshots. The plastic-back is not a ZKB-2, it's a 163-73. It has dyesub PBT caps instead.

The 163-73 should have yellow Alps. I suspect the ZKB-2 has them too.

Even the so-called dyesub ABS caps on Acer keyboards is almost certainly not dyesub, as I showed in my SEM micrographs. It's possible those were UV-printed instead, which would explain most of the trends I observed with experiments on those caps. For the moment, I'm just calling it Acer printing. Some AT101s also appear to have used it.

Chyros wrote: I suspect the ZKB-2 has them too.

I really don't suspect rather I know both Alps SKCL Green and Alps SKCL Yellow versions exist. What we do know is Alps SKCL Green (1983–1989) preceded Alps SKCL Yellow (1988–1998) so one can use that as as a guide.

wiki/Zenith_ZKB-2

seebart wrote:

Chyros wrote: I suspect the ZKB-2 has them too.

I really don't suspect rather I know both Alps SKCL Green and Alps SKCL Yellow versions exist. What we do know is Alps SKCL Green (1983–1989) preceded Alps SKCL Yellow (1988–1998) so one can use that as as a guide.

wiki/Zenith_ZKB-2

Yeah I know, more a gut feeling than anything. If anyone does decide to get this, please let me/us know which switches are inside!

alh84001 wrote: Try changing sliders? I had some switches that clicked on the upstroke, and I tried changing sliders between them, and some would simply work for some reason. Can't tell why. I will also now look for the deformed contact leaf. If that's the case with mine, I will be simultaneously mad and happy, because W T F

Well, with a lot more experimentation, I think that messing with the contact leaf may have fixed things in a roundabout way, by accident. The noise seems to be coming from the tactile leaf, and may be from it becoming worn and a bit loose in the housing, as I've managed to silence the switches entirely by inserting a small paper cutout behind the tactile leaf.
Additionally, the vertical coverage of the paper does not seem to matter, while it is imperative that there is a lot of horizontal coverage. Feel does not seem to be effected in any way.

Chyros wrote:

seebart wrote:

Chyros wrote: I suspect the ZKB-2 has them too.

I really don't suspect rather I know both Alps SKCL Green and Alps SKCL Yellow versions exist. What we do know is Alps SKCL Green (1983–1989) preceded Alps SKCL Yellow (1988–1998) so one can use that as as a guide.

wiki/Zenith_ZKB-2

Yeah I know, more a gut feeling than anything. If anyone does decide to get this, please let me/us know which switches are inside!

I just got a message from the seller. He says that the switch stems on both Zenith keyboards are yellow.

He also says that the underside of the switches on the ZKB-2 are black, indicating doubleshots, but that the undersides of the caps on KBD17 are white -- so, does this indicate dye-sub PBT or some other form of printing?

Hypersphere wrote: He also says that the underside of the switches on the ZKB-2 are black, indicating doubleshots, but that the undersides of the caps on KBD17 are white -- so, does this indicate dye-sub PBT or some other form of printing?

Like you say it indicates those are not doubleshots, impossible to tell without pictures IMO. Just because the keycap is white on the underside does not automatically mean they're dye-sub PBT.

wiki/Keycap_printing

If it's a Zenith 163-73 here you go:

wiki/Zenith_163-73

Just found this entry in the DT wiki:

wiki/Zenith_163-73

This says that that model of Zenith did have dye-sub PBT caps.

Just sent you that also. If it is a Zenith 163-73 then yes it has dye-sub PBT's on yellow SKCL's. Quite nice really. I would buy it.

Ohh my, I got some orange apls today and they are the best tactile switch I have ever felt

jaffers wrote:
Ohh my, I got some orange apls today and they are the best tactile switch I have ever felt

I agree, I love the orange. Since I like click, I love blue, too, but those 2 are head and shoulders above the rest.

jaffers wrote: Ohh my, I got some orange apls today and they are the best tactile switch I have ever felt

Another convert! ^^ Yeah, I know, oranges are fantastic switches, they're very hard to resist .

Hello there, I'm having continuity problems with some of the switches. What should I use to make the contact leaf happy?
I've read vinegar is being used to clean NES cartridges, and connectors. What do you think?

IPA (not beer, isopropyl alcohol) is your best bet, or a specialised contact cleaner.

I would not use vinegar (acetic acid) on the metallic parts of switches. I would also not use it on switches when they are still soldered to the keyboard. Chezel's recommendation of isopropyl alcohol or a contact cleaner is good. I have seen recommendations for WD-40 electrical contact cleaner (not the general-purpose WD-40).

What do you think about Kontakt 60?
The guy who sold me theese switches told me to use it. He claimed he had success with cherry mx blacks.