deskthority

Still working on it full time. There's just not much to post or show until we actually finish some steps.

Host software: I finished the designs. Development has been started but depends on the guy in charge finding time slots. We're using Node Webkit so it should be portable (Linux, Mac, Windows). Although I haven't seen that yet.

I'm currently filling a big Excel sheet with language variations for convenient macro recording. Not sure if this is the right way to go, all the time I have the feeling as if I'm missing something. But I think I need the language specific variations anyway to give people an option to select the correct keys when programming. The French for ex. don't have number keys so you cannot offer number keys in the software.



^ Tells you if a key is alpha, number, umlaut or special character (,./[] etc.) to give some pre-sorting to the user for easy selection.

Switch pcb has to be routed again. This is a minor task now because everything except the touch controller has been moved to the 'other' pcb.

All but one major groups have been hand built and are working, kind of.

We're currently routing the processor pcb.

Case is done so far but can't be considered finished until the pcbs are final.

And I ordered the first T-Shirt (which I designed in August 2009).

I'm just jealous that you've got rid of the ghastly glow off the Excel title bar. What exactly is the matter with the festering retards in the Office department who can't just draw a normal title bar like anyone else?

Got our first pcbs for the controller board today:

So excited!!

Hey lowpoly, I don't suppose you have any spare kits available, do you? I've been itching to get a trackpoint into one of my customs and this would be awesome!

No not yet. The few I have I need for development.

I look forward to your release!

scottc wrote: I look forward to your release!

As do I!

I am so curios how it will turn out, I have faith in you!
Do you know something about the price?

Can't say anything about the price yet. I have a big Excel table that computes the cost per unit but many lines are marked "unknown" yet. The result started to look unfunny on the way until I changed CNC milled to injection molded aluminum cases. Those have a big setup cost which only affects the unit cost indirectly. It just sets back our "break even" to 2017 or something.

Well okay, 2017... long time to wait!

Noooo.... "break even" is when the company starts making money after the non-recurring (or fixed) costs like molds are paid off. Sales start much earlier. It was a joke.

I ordered the first switch pcbs today. Two or three months until we have a working prototype, if everything goes as planned.

Well I feel like the biggest idiot on planet right now but good news anyway

What kind of sensor do you use under the stick? I do not udnerstand how does it work.

The stick is a capacitive sensor and an ASIC integrated into a single module. First pic in this thread minus my self-built extender.

Can you share the part number? (or better a link to the datasheet)

Regarding the Stick / Trackpoint. I have a Thinkpad myself, which has a trackpoint. If you set the sensitity and speed at near max, it is usable. However, it is not ideal. I don't like the GHB location, which puts strain on my hands. Better locations for me would be m,space and xcspace

Using 1 finger to position the pointer does well on a trackpad or, likewise, on a tablet. That is because there is lots of space, so the finger, and therefore the pointer, can be positioned and moved precisely. With a trackpoint however, there is no motion to speak of, it is all about pressure. So you vary the pressure that your finger gives, and you vary the angle. This is hard.

Wouldn't a more "joystick-like" trackpoint work better? Suppose the stick were 2, or maybe even 4 centimers long. And let's say the girth of a pencil, and made of a rough, nonslippery material. Then you could grab the stick with two fingers (thumb and index) and move the pointer more precisely. Two fingers = more control, and a longer stick = more control over the pressure (like a long barrel rifle will be more precise than a cut-off revolver ).

Instead of a stick you might also use a keycap (J-Stick ??). The best would be a keycap that you can grab with index or middle finger plus the thumb....

vvp wrote: Can you share the part number? (or better a link to the datasheet)

Sorry, not going to share stick info before beta. The datasheet is not online anyway.

@pietergen: the stick extender can be replaced with something longer or different. I try to provide more stick positions, there's discussion further up in the thread, also about the J-Pointer.

I already moved the stick in the way you describe and it works well, except that the stick doesn't like upwards movement. It just doesn't move at all then. This is done by the ASIC who - I guess - considers this an error situation. Nothing can be done about this.

About the stick being "hard", this is a question of firmware programming. You can make it so soft it's unusable. Strictly talking of pointing sticks here. That's the advantage of running the stick signal through the MCU, unlike my design prototype or other Trackpoint boards that just connect the stick to an internal USB hub.

How would you type on that keycap you suggest?

About the stick being "hard".....you can make it so soft it's unusable. Strictly talking of pointing sticks here. T

LOL

Are IBM trackpoints controlled by their own (I suppose closed source) firmware? I can set speed and sensitiy between "0 and 255" (unit unknown).

A 2 stick design would offer the possibility of having one "fast" and one "slow" stick. Or - a setup of one that does vertical movements and one that does horizontal movements. The vertical might be set: up=up left=up down=down right=down. The "horizontal moment stick" could be up=left left=left down=right right=right. You'd have to test it, but my guess is that this is easier to use.

the stick doesn't like upwards movement

What do you mean by upwards? Like "don't hit the head from below"?

How would you type on that keycap you suggest?

You would not type on it. It would be a keycap (or key cappish thing) that you grab from the sides with 2, maybe even three fingers. Like grabbing a pencil.

Some more out of the box pointer control ideas:
- contactless. Control based on hand/finger positions, where the hands are sensed by light (leds + optical cells), or interference (see the control of the Theremin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theremin) or magnetic fields (coils in the keyboard) and a magnetic ring on the index....
- mechanical. Having a slider from left to right ('south" of the spacebar) and a slider for up and down (on a standard qwerty board: running left of ESC, tab, capslock, shift, ctrl)
- touch based. In fact a touchpad done differently, in the form of two long, narrow strips of touch material, running (like the sliders mentioned above) up/down and left/right. You need two hands to control it, but it will be much more precise then a regular (small) touchpad)

Sweet dreams I have no idea if this is even possible.

pietergen wrote:

the stick doesn't like upwards movement

What do you mean by upwards? Like "don't hit the head from below"?

While Lowpoly could better answer this, I have a feeling he's talking about "pulling the joystick upwards", or at least having not enough pressure on the stick.

^^^ Exactly like this. Thank you.

pietergen wrote: Are IBM trackpoints controlled by their own (I suppose closed source) firmware? I can set speed and sensitiy between "0 and 255" (unit unknown).

Original Trackpoints can be "programmed" by special ps/2 commands. Search for ykt3dext.pdf. The original Almaden source is not available anymore but I found it lately. But where did I put it.

pietergen wrote: A 2 stick design would offer the possibility of having one "fast" and one "slow" stick. Or - a setup of one that does vertical movements and one that does horizontal movements. The vertical might be set: up=up left=up down=down right=down. The "horizontal moment stick" could be up=left left=left down=right right=right. You'd have to test it, but my guess is that this is easier to use.

Right now we have two stick connectors on the controller pcb and 3 mounting positions in the case. You may be on your own when it comes to programming.

pietergen wrote: Some more out of the box pointer control ideas:
- contactless. Control based on hand/finger positions, where the hands are sensed by light (leds + optical cells), or interference (see the control of the Theremin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theremin) or magnetic fields (coils in the keyboard) and a magnetic ring on the index....

This just wasn't funded on Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mo ... fingertips

Reading again it was cancelled by the creator --> motix.org.

pietergen wrote: - mechanical. Having a slider from left to right ('south" of the spacebar) and a slider for up and down (on a standard qwerty board: running left of ESC, tab, capslock, shift, ctrl)

A mech slider you have to move back? I'd prefer Webwit's wheel here, search for qHack.

pietergen wrote: - touch based. In fact a touchpad done differently, in the form of two long, narrow strips of touch material, running (like the sliders mentioned above) up/down and left/right. You need two hands to control it, but it will be much more precise then a regular (small) touchpad)

We have a touch controller on the switch pcb. Not sure how this will be used in the end. But you should be able to make a virtual scroll wheel with it in the middle of the space bar.

pietergen wrote: Sweet dreams I have no idea if this is even possible.

Alternate stick positions, touch controller, not sure if this will be connected out of the box. I rather see it as an opportunity to tinker.

pietergen wrote: Some more out of the box pointer control ideas:
- contactless. Control based on hand/finger positions, where the hands are sensed by light (leds + optical cells), or interference (see the control of the Theremin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theremin) or magnetic fields (coils in the keyboard) and a magnetic ring on the index....

lowpoly wrote: This just wasn't funded on Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mo ... fingertips

Reading again it was cancelled by the creator --> motix.org.

Just watching their video and trying to do the motions myself... it sucks. Lateral motion of the fingers with the hand otherwise held steady is not a fluid or comfortable motion, and in general hand/finger movement in the plane roughly parallel to the screen is much harder than movement in the plane of the table. The lateral motions in a trackpoint work because they read force, not position (isometric, not isotonic), so you can put the whole strength of your arm behind it if you want, and still not be moving the hand much. Trackballs and trackpads are also okay, because you end up moving your whole hand, or even your whole arm (perhaps less so in the case of thumb trackballs, but the thumb is also very nimble).

[Also, watching the people in their video awkwardly move the mouse cursor makes me cringe. And the lag between movement and cursor response looks quite bad.]

Still though, I’m glad people are experimenting and trying new things.

On my hunt for keycaps I ordered some side printed caps (bad phone pic, sorry):



I was sure they were made by Keycool. However, they never answered my inquiry, so probably not.

Anybody know the OEM?

lowpoly, you mentioned ykt3dext.pdf. I've actually been working from what appeared to be a later version - http://blogs.epfl.ch/icenet/documents/Ykt3Eext.pdf.

I never realized there was more than one document, that's why I couldn't find it. Thank you.

lowpoly wrote: I never realized there was more than one document, that's why I couldn't find it. Thank you.

Not a problem

First switch pcbs came today:



The LED connectors are not connected, except F, J and Esc. No disco lights for now. But because all the "expensive" parts are on the controller pcb (except touch control), the switch pcb is easy to replace later on.

Several alternative switch positions for those who want to solder like
- ISO
- 5 1u keys in the lower right
- 1u key right of right shift (making "L" cursor block possible)
- 2 1u keys instead of backspace
- support for centered and offset space bar switches
- centered and offset CapsLock

If everything works out as expected these will be supported in the programming software as well (see small handles. Backspace came later, I still have to fix the design):




I think we will only do regular ISO and ANSI though. But if you have the keycaps and want to mod, you can.

Separate PCBs for switches and logic is very smart, like the better keyboards out there. How are you connecting them together?

I'm in a little group designing an even smaller custom keyboard with a modular controller, so we can go wireless.

Connection is by FFC cable, like the stick. Separate boards are also better for maintenance. You only have to pull one FFC cable to remove the switch pcb. And the screws of course.

Very true. We're going with a wedge shaped case to make enough space for batteries down at the back, while staying nice and slim at the front. Double-deck is definitely a good way to go when packing things tight! And you get a reusable switch PCB out of it, with the potential for future upgrades on the controller side.