Trump v Clinton: who do you support?

How would you vote if you could vote?

Vote enthusiastically for Trump
12
14%
Vote enthusiastically for Clinton
8
9%
Vote for Trump because you despise Clinton
12
14%
Vote for Clinton because you despise Trump
19
22%
Refuse to vote because you despise them both
30
34%
Undecided
6
7%
 
Total votes: 87

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

12 May 2016, 13:43

fohat wrote:
vivalarevolución wrote:
the short list for vice president
Trump has nothing to lose.

But if he goes down in flames, I can't see any actual politician allied with him, who wanted a future career, rising from the ashes.
While he had ambitions of running for President, Pence's political future currently is in the ashes. He has boggled his handling of religious, gender, and women's issues at the state level, basically damping his national reputation. The state budget has been held in check, but not without the consequences of starving state agencies and political games.

The only benefit I see with Pence as VP is support from the religious right and the promise of balancing budgets. But that's pretty much a given for Republicans, anyways.

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

12 May 2016, 13:47

If Trump does not win this race things are not going to continue for him like before career wise. He's managed to offend so many people it's bound to have some impact even for him. That will then be well deserved... :evilgeek:

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

12 May 2016, 14:33

seebart wrote:
things are not going to continue for him like before
He is going to be 70 next month and has plenty of money to do whatever he wants for the rest of his life.

This was the finale of the fireworks show.

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

12 May 2016, 14:44

fohat wrote:
seebart wrote: He is going to be 70 next month and has plenty of money to do whatever he wants for the rest of his life.
I'm not so sure about that, some say he's generally exaggerated his net worth and of course this campain is not cheap.
Top 10 Donald Trump Failures
http://content.time.com/time/specials/p ... 09,00.html

User avatar
Muirium
µ

12 May 2016, 15:07

He's asking his dear buddies in the party he just trainwrecked for money for his campaign. Right as they're climbing out of the upturned wagons…

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

12 May 2016, 18:01

Seems his until now unreleased tax returns also play a certain role in this...
After Fortune’s Shawn Tully dug into Trump’s financial disclosures with the Federal Election Commission and an accompanying personal balance sheet his campaign released, he noted in March that Trump “appears to have overstated his income, by a lot, which could be the reason he has so far tried to avoid releasing his returns.” Tully said that Trump apparently boosted his income in the documents by conflating his various businesses’ revenue with his personal income. Trump didn’t respond to Tully’s assessment, but he could clear up all of that by releasing his tax returns.
http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/ ... ax-returns

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

12 May 2016, 18:08

Did not Trump urge Obama to publish his birth certificate? :lol:

User avatar
Muirium
µ

12 May 2016, 18:22

Sure. But Trump is a white guy, totally different!

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

12 May 2016, 18:25

kbdfr wrote: Did not Trump urge Obama to publish his birth certificate? :lol:
Yes, but not "publish" but rather present for proof of citizenship.

Kurplop

12 May 2016, 19:00

Muirium wrote: Sure. But Trump is a white guy, totally different!
Pardon my denseness, but in what way(s) do you mean being white in this situation is different?

User avatar
Muirium
µ

12 May 2016, 19:41

Anyone ever demanded to see a white president's birth certificate? Then the very first black man to get the job: boom! The "birthers" are racists, pure and simple.

jacobolus

12 May 2016, 20:07

It’s not because Obama’s black, per se, though that’s part of it. The “birther” movement and the criticisms over his associations with Richard Wright, etc., arose because nobody had any legitimate dirt on Obama, and the GOP has no legs to stand on w/r/t substantive policy debates. Obama had a very squeaky clean record, no corruption, no sex scandals, no obviously disqualifying statements, etc.

With Bill Clinton, they wasted years and years of congressional and public attention on the extramarital affairs, the Whitewater investigation, Vince Foster conspiracy theories, etc., in a similar tactic. But there was at least some plausible narrative structure and some hint of real meat to the scandals, so the hypocrisy and shamelessness of the agitators wasn’t quite as obvious. In the Obama case, it was obvious to literally everyone that the whole thing was a farcical sham.

User avatar
Blaise170
ALPS キーボード

12 May 2016, 20:08

Not just racist, but also Islamophobic, due to his middle name being Hussein. Of course, he is Christian but people tend to overlook that when they have an agenda to push.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

12 May 2016, 20:16

These are all reasons to select Bernie in preference to Hillary. His life and record are consistent and impeccable.

Nobody has anything on him, and even the most rabid right-winger, however much he might disagree with Bernie's politics, knows that his virtue is untarnished.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

12 May 2016, 20:44

jacobolus wrote: In the Obama case, it was obvious to literally everyone that the whole thing was a farcical sham.
Everyone except the Donald…

Republicans are extraordinarily bad losers. They piss and whine and go make up dirt whenever they're deprived their victory. In that sense, Donald truly is their natural born leader.

Democrats aren't saints either. But it's just farcical when you're outside America to behold the degree to which one side is playing the bad guys. Even hurtling their own nation off a fiscal deadline cliff! Sarah Palin was just the start of it.

By the way, she's my tip for Donald's running mate. The Marmite candidate and the Vegemite!

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

12 May 2016, 20:49

Last edited by fohat on 12 May 2016, 20:59, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

12 May 2016, 20:55

I stopped watching videos about politics after I came out of the theatre after Farenheit 9/11 and somehow loathed Michael Moore more than I did George W! (Damn it, Bowling For Columbine was good, but that one. Yeech.) This personal prohibition may also include political songs. Depends if I like the melody.

User avatar
chzel

12 May 2016, 21:33

Special delivery for μ!
:evilgeek: :evilgeek:

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

12 May 2016, 21:52

They should open up the Eurovision Song Contest so the USA can participate with this song. However, the girls must wear black leather or grow beards.

User avatar
chzel

12 May 2016, 23:12

webwit wrote: However, the girls must wear black leather or grow beards.
Why not both?

Kurplop

12 May 2016, 23:51

There is a whole lot to respond to and I'm not sure where best to start, so I'll just respond as concisely as possible in no particular order.

Jacobolus- Knowing you to be a man who values the precision of surveys, scientific findings, and statistics, you may want to be careful how you apply the word "literally', i.e., your statement "it was obvious to literally everyone...". 'Virtually' would be better but probably still inaccurate. 'a majority' better still, but ultimately, "...it was obvious to 'almost all in my circle—which whom most share my progressive leanings'—, that the whole thing's a farcical sham", is likely the most accurate.

Blaise170- If having a different skin color or an unusual name inoculates one from criticism, how could we possibly vet a candidate? I don't like unfair judgements or blanket statements about people, but any justified claims shouldn't be disqualified simply because the person in question falls under some contrived protected status umbrella. I agree that many attacks are spewed out by bigots but we shouldn't allow our own ideologies to blind us from honest analysis.

Fohat— From what I've seen, Bernie seems to be more consistently principled than either of the front runners. Aside from coming across to me as a bit of an old curmudgeon, the only real objections I have with him are his political views.

Muirium— It is more than a bit embarrassing to me how the American political scene has become a side show spectacle. It's too bad we don't have a viable independent candidate so we could witness a true 'Three Ring Circus'.

As for Michael Moore, what took so long? I, long ago, tired of excessively biased political and societal satire, even when it supported my own position. I think that it tends to cheapen and delegitimize important issues.

Chzel— See my first comment to Muirium.

User avatar
chzel

13 May 2016, 00:11

Kurplop, I am truly dumbfounded by the way these elections are turning out...It's scary to see both Trump and Hillary getting more and more momentum while both, in my eyes, are representing the worst of any political beliefs.
I get the impression that a big majority in the US are really close-minded and follow the carrot that is waved in front of them. And considering that the US foreign relations have major influence all around the world, really makes me worry...
Get your act together US...

Kurplop

13 May 2016, 00:22

I agree. Many of us are left in a position where any vote is distasteful. We want to vote for a candidate who shares our values and represents our political leanings, however such an option will surely amount to throwing away our vote. On the other hand, to vote for our party's choice is, to many of us, giving approval to someone deeply flawed and who doesn't represent our true standards.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

13 May 2016, 00:30

chzel wrote: Get your act together US...
Coming from a Greek, you know it's serious advice!

The only true surprise this year to me is that it took so long for a celebrity dummy candidate to seize the two party system. (Ronald Reagan doesn't count: not nearly nasty enough! And he was pre-social networks, back when the news didn't come exclusively from Twitter.) When you already have name recognition and an internet following, you've a huge advantage over all comers. Especially clueless no-names like Rubio, Cruz, Carly and Jeb. What a conveyor belt of losers.

Hillary, meanwhile, has been a household name for 24 years. If this year was Trump vs. Bernie, I'd be much more worried.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

13 May 2016, 00:43

Muirium wrote:
If this year was Trump vs. Bernie, I'd be much more worried.
How so? Everybody respects Bernie, even people who disagree with him on details.

User avatar
chzel

13 May 2016, 00:48

Kurplop wrote: ...such an option will surely amount to throwing away our vote.
Why is that? A vote cast is never wasted. Vote what you think is best, it sends a message. Maybe the message will get lost among the cheering of the victors, but maybe a few will hear it, and next elections will be better.
Muirium wrote:
chzel wrote: Get your act together US...
Coming from a Greek, you know it's serious advice!
Yeah, I mean, our antics makes us the fools of the court, and we are stupid enough to feel glad about it...
We elected a left-wing government, to do what the previous (right-wing) government would eventually do, all while a "nationalist" party (neonazis in disguise) rises third in the elections. And we've got a ton of refugees nobody wants to help, and we cry because we don't want to change anything that matters...because nothing is rotten in the state of Denmark. Or so we like to believe, we, the great Greeks.
fohat wrote:
Muirium wrote:
If this year was Trump vs. Bernie, I'd be much more worried.
How so? Everybody respects Bernie, even people who disagree with him on details.
The way I see it, and I believe Mu as well, Trump vs Bernie would be an easy victory for Trump, because Bernie is rather meek.
I like Bernie's positions, and I believe he was the best candidate, but he can't compete with the fanfare of Trump.
Not when common sense is not so common after all...

User avatar
Muirium
µ

13 May 2016, 00:52

Yup. Fohat: don't mistake your own perspective for "everyone". There's millions of people out there who take Trump seriously enough to vote for him in a primary. There are many more who only need to hear the word "socialism" to bark at their kids to open the gun cabinet because it's time to rustle up a posse.

Honestly, I really doubt Bernie would fair well in a general election. Trump has (shitty) star power and a (bratty) way with words. That beats intellect and idealism any time.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

13 May 2016, 01:53

Muirium wrote:
There's millions of people out there who take Trump seriously enough to vote for him in a primary.

Honestly, I really doubt Bernie would fair well in a general election.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... -5565.html

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pol ... vs-sanders

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-el ... or-n570766

http://www.270towin.com/maps/sanders-tr ... ctoral-map

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... -donald-t/

Kurplop

13 May 2016, 02:29

chzel wrote:
Kurplop wrote: ...such an option will surely amount to throwing away our vote.
Why is that? A vote cast is never wasted. Vote what you think is best, it sends a message. Maybe the message will get lost among the cheering of the victors, but maybe a few will hear it, and next elections will be better.
I guess in many ways I subscribe to the 'Fohat Doctrine' regarding the need to vote. However, you got me thinking about what is really important to me in choosing a president.

I don't care for the personalities of either candidate and while I can't know for sure, I question the trustworthiness of either one. I believe that the egregiousness of Trump's juvenile insults are equalled by the slippery dishonesty of Ms Clinton. When I look beyond character and address stated policies, I reluctantly have to lean toward Trump, though just barely.

While I think Trump's bombast about immigration is inflammatory and I have a lot of empathy for those trying to better their lives by seeking opportunities, the virtual open door policy that we have now is a national mockery. Your hospitality invites a guest into your home but when they enter through a closed window it's trespassing. I wonder how many open border advocates go to bed at night with the front door unlocked?

While I am very uncomfortable with abortion, in our pluralistic nation I will give a degree of latitude for those who have differing opinions about when personhood begins. I believe however that Ms Clinton's strong stance protecting abortion rights up to mid-birth at 40 weeks is an effrontery against the value of human life. As for gun rights, I don't have a strong opinion except that I see a lot of pandering on both sides. Both of these issues could be where the next president will have their greatest legacy because of the 3-5 Supreme Court appointments they will oversee.

I think while Trump's foreign policy is unclear and his personality makes him a wild card, with Clinton we have a proven history, I think mostly of failure and irresponsibility.

As far as global issues go, I'm tired of President Obama's frequent global apologies even though we have been quite generous to the rest of the world. We are rich and I think morality dictates our giving, but generosity is giving of your personal wealth, not taking from the unwilling to distribute and then feeling good about yourself for your altruism. I don't know Trump's position on this but having been Secretary of State to the current administration, Clinton's probably represents more of the same.

I will be the first to say that I'm not of a policy expert on political matters. I question those who think they can know with certainty which ideology will work best in a given time and country, but we should try to do the best we can.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

13 May 2016, 02:38

Yeah, Fohat, I know about those polls. But they are hypotheticals, asking people now without the full blown Trump v Bernie nightmare campaign. That slugfest is the problem. Or would have been, if Bern weren't already lying with his ass on the canvas thanks to Hillary.

Trump's a terrible candidate. But the guy knows how to soundbite and pander to the masses. Hillary has similar skills. Poor Bernie, however, is stricken with an awful malady for a politician. He believes.

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