deskthority

That 62% remain vote was rather pathetic Mu! I was expecting 70 at least! Hardly enough to declare independence over.. I'm even more disappointed in Ireland.

I think this is a better explanation:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ned-racism

South of the border, at least, the referendum was about a divided people with starkly different views of the present and the future. England (and Wales) is getting more like America now, with hard lines drawn between two bitter sides locked in culture wars. Okay, so they don't have guns (fortunately!) but it's going to be a painful time for all involved.

To everyone here in Britain who voted Remain like me: I know the pain of losing a referendum all too well. But up here in Scotland, it's different today. The Scottish independence supporters I know are pretty upbeat. It's the unionists who are, frankly, terrified. The Britain they voted to remain in only two years ago just gave them the finger in the biggest possible way.

I chose to come here this morning to get the news, and I must say that I am very surprised.

You guys fucked up royally.

Perhaps, at least, it will serve as a cautionary tale over here come November.

flabbergast wrote: Quite interesting to see the vote by age brackets. Baby boomers, you f**k us over once again!

Here's some pretty charts: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng- ... d-analysis

My own dear No and Remain voting town of Edinburgh highlighted. We were 3:1 against leaving the EU, beyond even Scotland's overall 2:1. But out we go! Only Nicola Sturgeon can save us now.

photekq wrote: That 62% remain vote was rather pathetic Mu! I was expecting 70 at least! Hardly enough to declare independence over.. I'm even more disappointed in Ireland.

So am I. Looks like a Protestant vs. Catholic divide, which is just the kind of news they really don't need. What with a closed border coming once again…

As for Scotland's 2:1 Remain vote. I know a few nationalists who voted Leave! Hardcore sovereignty enthusiasts. Anti-Nato types, anti-EU and anti-capitalism too, some of them. The result was complex here in Scotland, as well, beneath the surface. But our overall direction of travel is unanimous, and polar opposite to England's outside of lonely London. Poor bastards.

TuxKey wrote: Congrats UK. Living in The Netherlands were not allowed to have a referendum
Yep i'm not kidding the law has bin ritten so that we can't actually have a democratic vote on the matter.
And i'm not talking about sum banana republic in the middle of no where..!!

if you believe in the EU please watch this and at least be aware of a different view.

[youtube video]

And this is the second part... good one..

[youtube video]

Of course it’s easier just to link to 2 youtube videos totalizing almost 5 hours,
but what about arguments?

This being said, a referendum is just one form of "democratic vote" - elections are another.
Would you want to be asked on which occasions flags are to be put at half-mast?
Whether bicycles should have reflecting tyres?
Whether the maximal inprinsonment sentence for stealing should be 5 or 8 years?
These are the matters your representatives deal with for you.

And if you are so keen on referendums as "democratic vote",
go ask the kids in a classroom whether school should be cancelled tomorrow.

No kbdfr, those comparisons of yours are not applicable IMO, as a German citizen and taxpayer I very much would have wanted a vote on joining the EU and taking the Euro as my currency.

And the award of biggest idiot of the day surprisingly does not go to Nigel.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683029 ... r-adam-bbc

Just lost for words.

seebart wrote: No kbdfr, those comparisons of yours are not applicable IMO, as a German citizen and taxpayer I very much would have wanted a vote on joining the EU and taking the Euro as my currency.

Nah, would you want a vote about the NATO?
After all, it’s just another community Germany is a part of.
For your information, the NATO statute makes it mandatory for all members to give military assistance if another member is attacked.

Germany is also a party at the Paris Agreement on climate,
which puts obligations on it.

And last but not least,
what about the UNO?

No, NATO and UNO do not involve a change of currency and a new (pseudo) administration that cost billions and achieve little but regualte light bulbs and washing machines.

The fruity anti-Brexit Ukip voters: I salute you!


http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/ho ... d-and-why/

Note how much of Scotland's Leave vote came from SNP supporters. (The last party on the chart.) I think we've just seen a very clear majority for independence. And so does the Scottish government…

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... is-certain

seebart wrote: No, NATO and UNO do not involve a change of currency and a new (pseudo) administration that cost billions and achieve little but regualte light bulbs and washing machines.

Yes , all them safety and quality standards they impose , how terrible!

So what happens next? Scotland goes independent and rejoins the EU? UK members of Deskthority have to pay extra club fees? They close down the Chunnel?

All I know is that I should have bet against the European stock markets yesterday. Good lord.

Well nobody has left anything yet , so Scotland just have to leave the UK and then they are ok. I don't know however if they would be automatic members or have to join.

Mµ your chart is interesting. Basically tells it all. Fucking UKIP.

seebart wrote: No, NATO and UNO do not involve a change of currency and a new (pseudo) administration that cost billions and achieve little but regualte light bulbs and washing machines.

The currency change was not a EU decision, otherwise all EU member States would have had to introduce it.
No, it was an independent decision taken (or not taken) at national level by the Member States,
so by the Bundestag in Germany:
https://www.bundestag.de/dokumente/text ... uro/212056

No one really knows what exactly happens next that's the thing...one thing is sure this will trigger all kinds of changes.

kbdfr wrote:

seebart wrote: No, NATO and UNO do not involve a change of currency and a new (pseudo) administration that cost billions and achieve little but regualte light bulbs and washing machines.

The currency change was not a EU decision, otherwise all EU member States would have had to introduce it.
No, it was an independent decision taken (or not taken) at national level by the Member States,
so by the Bundestag in Germany:
https://www.bundestag.de/dokumente/text ... uro/212056

Exactly, as a as a German citizen and taxpayer I was not given a vote personally for such a major change. Undemocratic in my opinion.

it was an independent decision

A very "noble" way of putting it.

I'm with Seebart on this one. Nothing beats a referendum. You Germans are conscripted up to things you never said you wanted, time and time again by your governments. It's a strange democracy that fears to ask the people themselves.

andrewjoy wrote: Well nobody has left anything yet , so Scotland just have to leave the UK and then they are ok. I don't know however if they would be automatic members or have to join.

Nothing happens quite yet. Prime Minister elect, Boris Johnson, says no hurry to invoke article 50: the official EU withdrawal process. Though European politicians are saying otherwise!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... is-certain

Scotland's independence is anything but a foregone conclusion. We need to see if the No/Remain voters have swung behind independence now. And, sadly, we need permission from London to make any vote official, like the last one. Scotland isn't out the woods yet. But unlike you Remainers in England, there is at least a path out for us!

seebart wrote: No kbdfr, those comparisons of yours are not applicable IMO, as a German citizen and taxpayer I very much would have wanted a vote on joining the EU and taking the Euro as my currency.

I absolutely felt the same way.

I'd like to emphasize I'm not a "referendum" fetishist of sorts, but in this single case I cannot change my mind. Of course I'm talking about a situation 15 years ago, now it's too late (for Germany) anyways.

(The second clause shouldn't be /brownfont.)

Referendums are extravagant and prone to wild protest. But this one was crucial. Just as Scotland's next will be, I hope.

(Don't fuck it up again, Scotland!)

This really saddens me, TBH. I feel like the UK was a really important part of the EU. The portuguese markets are terrified and have hit the lowest point of the last 20 years.

I'm not sure leaving the EU is the best for the UK but what saddens me the most is that I don't think most people who voted have any idea as well. I'm not fan of referendums for these sort of matters because you're allowing popular opinion to overcome reason. Leaving or staying in the EU should be decided based on studies, projections, facts. No one has an idea of what comes next!!

They didn't during the election, either.

off-topic-f10/brexit-the-dt-poll-t13885 ... ml#p313967

I'm all for referenda for crucial constitutional change. Keeping England in the EU against the clear will of its people (so many of them truly loathe "Europe") is no more noble than this.

Voting for something just for the sake of slapping the Gouvernement across the face is the most stupid thing to do.
I am very certain that this happened today, and Nigel is the living prove!

Muirium wrote: Keeping England in the EU against the clear will of its people (so many of them truly loathe "Europe") is no more noble than this.

I wouldn't call 52% "clear will of its people". How many people actually made an informed decision? I think the article you quoted was trying to make this a passion based decision out of this referendum when it should be an extremely cautious and informed decision, based on actual facts or studies at the very least

Imagine I give you a choice between A and B. You have no idea of the consequences of either choice but are truly passionate about the letter A. Why would you even be allowed to make a choice? It's a double edged sword that almost makes it look like I'm against democracy but really all I'm against is the lack of reasoning behind important decisions like these.

Muirium wrote:
I'm all for referenda for crucial constitutional change.

I am not , people with no experience in such matters have no place making decisions on it. You would not consult a Electrician on the best practice for brain surgery so why ask the general population about a political union 90% of them know nothing about.

The whole idea of a referendum on such an important topic is insane, people are influenced by spin and propaganda not fact.

Perhaps we should have a vote on if Creationism or Evolution is right and witch one we should teach in schools? Because its up to the people to decide right ? Not experts.

andrewjoy wrote: I am not , people with no experience in such matters have no place making decisions on it. You would not consult a Electrician on the best practice for brain surgery so why ask the general population about a political union 90% of them know nothing about.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make but worded in a simple and effective way

Emotions have no place in important decisions such as ones about governance and politics.

Emotions are fine and valuable on the personal level, but reckless and dangerous when expressed en masse.

So you anti-referendum guys have lots of respect and faith in the expertise and judgement of elected politicians?

Being against something is fine. But having no practical better solution is just self satisfying hot air. Brother Bernie…

Representative democracy is not good, but still better.

webwit wrote: I'm a big fan of referendums. Except when they vote the other way.

^^^^^ That's pretty much the point.

seebart wrote: Exactly, as a as a German citizen and taxpayer I was not given a vote personally for such a major change. Undemocratic in my opinion.

That's just not how our democracy works. And we're now looking at many of these decisions with alot more hindsight. There was never a major political force in Germany that opposed the Euro or the EU integration. Why should we have held a referendum if 90% of the people kept voting for parties supporting this. It's pretty safe to assume that referendums back then wouldn't have changed a thing!