A new US Republican thread 2016

[seebart]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

wingtrump.jpg

Don't disrespect the wingnut like that!

[fohat]

when I was your age I felt it. I think it's a common phase that many young men feel.

A lot of innocent people are getting hurt

I was born when Harry Truman was president and I find myself agreeing nearly 100% with what Jacobolus is saying.

Bernie was also right about just about everything, and he could have beaten Trump handily.

[chuckdee]

Jacobolus, I hope you and your friends aren't to disappointed when these predictions that you are suggesting never come to pass. I know the heady sense of importance a person can get when they think that they are resisting certain doom; when I was your age I felt it. I think it's a common phase that many young men feel.

I am sometimes brought back down to earth remembering this saying. Things are rarely as bad as they seem... or as good. I hope it helps you.

In the meantime, please be careful with your words. A lot of innocent people are getting hurt responding to reckless insinuations.

This is a general statement- not just to this one quote, nor meant to single you out Kurplop. It's unwise to speak to people's age, social status, race, etc., on an internet forum, unless you know them, or know the truth of what you're stating. It makes you appear more than a little condescending, and really undermines the argument. It also makes it seem that one thinks that by mere dint of your position, that wisdom and temperance is conferred upon you, which is very much untrue, I've found. The only thing that these things give you is a modicum of experience in that particular place.

[vivalarevolución]

In the meantime, please be careful with your words. A lot of innocent people are getting hurt responding to reckless insinuations.

Yea, exactly, that's why many of the individuals that have been targeted by the words of our president-elect and vice president-elect feel scared right now.

If you supported Trump but don't believe that the way he talked about many different groups is the right way to treat other human beings, then hold him and the worst of his supporters accountable and speak up for the way that you believe humanity should be treated.

Jacobolus, I hope you and your friends aren't to disappointed when these predictions that you are suggesting never come to pass. I know the heady sense of importance a person can get when they think that they are resisting certain doom; when I was your age I felt it. I think it's a common phase that many young men feel.

I am sometimes brought back down to earth remembering this saying. Things are rarely as bad as they seem... or as good. I hope it helps you.

I personally will not be disappointed if the administration does not culminate in many of the fears that jacobolus discussing. I will be relieved and happy that we did not lurch further towards autocracy.

Platitudes don't bring much comfort when you're the person being subject to hate speech.

[vivalarevolución]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

wingtrump.jpg

He has been my Troll of the Year for a few months now.

[Kurplop]

This is a general statement- not just to this one quote, nor meant to single you out Kurplop. It's unwise to speak to people's age, social status, race, etc., on an internet forum, unless you know them, or know the truth of what you're stating. It makes you appear more than a little condescending, and really undermines the argument. It also makes it seem that one thinks that by mere dint of your position, that wisdom and temperance is conferred upon you, which is very much untrue, I've found. The only thing that these things give you is a modicum of experience in that particular place.

I agree, thanks for reminding me. My tone was meant to be condescending, but in an ironic sort of way. It was a reaction to a film clip he referred to . By presenting it, I can only assume that he was equating Trump to Hitler and the people who voted for him as either ignorant, gullible fools or malicious and complicit haters. I take exception to that, and as the film suggested, chose to take a stand and call him out on it. Looking back I see that my style could have been easily misinterpreted. My apologies to anyone suffering collateral damage because of it.

I do know Jacobolus, or I should say we met and had dinner together at a GH meet-up a few years back. I found him to be a person that is very much a research and information type of person who seems to be very sincere about his concerns. I admire that in him and wish that we could enjoy a more positive dialog where we can assume and hope the best from others. I admit that I am sometimes at a loss as to how I should respond to direct and indirect attacks when I know their premise is wrong.

My point all along, in this forum as well as in GH, is to remind people that, while there are some hateful people who follow Trump's reckless statements in the worst way, the same exists on the other side. I hesitate to site examples but for clarity I will just mention the Trump voter who was beaten by several black thugs. I was watching the footage with one of my daughters and we both commented on how we would be equally disgusted or even more disgusted by the behavior if the scenario was reversed. I know people who were not just disappointed but frightened by Trump's victory. I'm sure their concerns are valid because of the irresponsible things he has said. I strongly suspect that their fears have been further escalated by inflammatory statements made by Trump's opponents.

Bernie was also right about just about everything, and he could have beaten Trump handily.

After your grossly inaccurate prognostications regarding the election results, I thought you would have left the predictions to someone else; or at least until they were forgotten

fohat.digs
* Elevated Elder
Posts: 6817
My prediction:
I will not be at all surprised if Trump receives less than 50 million votes,
and I will be very surprised if he receives over 60 million votes.
[/i]
I dug up your statement and I was mistaken. You weren't wrong after all, just surprised. Sorry.

I think what you described is an indictment of our political system and how we choose consume information, question that information, listen to each other, and understand each other.

If you had the opportunity for a ranked choice voting system, like Maine just voted for, you would not have to vote for Trump. I can really understand why people favored Trump. I'm here in the Midwest, the region of the country that shifted and gave him the victory. The conditions and viewpoints that shifted votes are very real to me. Yet lots of exaggeration, misinformation, misunderstanding were being tossed around by supporters on both sides, to an unbearable degree.

The reason I personally find Trump and his electoral college victory (not popular or majority vote) so repulsive is the world view that is prevailing right now and how it affects human relationships and conditions. It's a message of fear, polarization, insults, anti-science, anti-environment, anti-immigrant, sexism, intimidation, ridiculous promises without plans, empowering of those speaking from a place of hate...we've heard the story. This certainly does not embody all of his supporters, but those are the messages that I heard from the campaign directly and not the media. For the things the supporters did not agree with in his words and behavior, I observed lots of justification while not holding him accountable for the things they did not agree with. And the same goes for those that supported Hillary, they looked the other way on many things.

The way that we will react to Trump will create the actual changes.

I agree with most of what you wrote, I abridged it and put in bold type the points I especially appreciated. It was not an easy decision to vote for him. I was going to protest vote for another candidate that better lined up with my values but a few days before the election realized that most reasonable people would see that much of the Trump vote was an indictment on his opponent and not carte blanche approval of his personality. In California, a republican vote means nothing anyways so I went for it. I don't regret it and still think it was the lesser of two evils.

Your last statement about how we react to Trump says it all, although there will be disagreement about what form that reaction should take. I wrote a short paper a month ago, addressed mostly to my conservative friends, when I though Clinton would have a decisive victory. It speaks to my most sincere feelings about the matter and hope others will consider reading it.
https://kurplopintheshop.wordpress.com/ ... ost-title/

[chuckdee]

This is a general statement- not just to this one quote, nor meant to single you out Kurplop. It's unwise to speak to people's age, social status, race, etc., on an internet forum, unless you know them, or know the truth of what you're stating. It makes you appear more than a little condescending, and really undermines the argument. It also makes it seem that one thinks that by mere dint of your position, that wisdom and temperance is conferred upon you, which is very much untrue, I've found. The only thing that these things give you is a modicum of experience in that particular place.

I agree, thanks for reminding me. My tone was meant to be condescending, but in an ironic sort of way. It was a reaction to a film clip he referred to . By presenting it, I can only assume that he was equating Trump to Hitler and the people who voted for him as either ignorant, gullible fools or malicious and complicit haters. I take exception to that, and as the film suggested, chose to take a stand and call him out on it. Looking back I see that my style could have been easily misinterpreted. My apologies to anyone suffering collateral damage because of it.

I do know Jacobolus, or I should say we met and had dinner together at a GH meet-up a few years back. I found him to be a person that is very much a research and information type of person who seems to be very sincere about his concerns. I admire that in him and wish that we could enjoy a more positive dialog where we can assume and hope the best from others. I admit that I am sometimes at a loss as to how I should respond to direct and indirect attacks when I know their premise is wrong.

My point all along, in this forum as well as in GH, is to remind people that, while there are some hateful people who follow Trump's reckless statements in the worst way, the same exists on the other side. I hesitate to site examples but for clarity I will just mention the Trump voter who was beaten by several black thugs. I was watching the footage with one of my daughters and we both commented on how we would be equally disgusted or even more disgusted by the behavior if the scenario was reversed. I know people who were not just disappointed but frightened by Trump's victory. I'm sure their concerns are valid because of the irresponsible things he has said. I strongly suspect that their fears have been further escalated by inflammatory statements made by Trump's opponents.

Thank you, and kudos to you, for taking it in the spirit intended. You don't find that too often on internet forums, and I really appreciate it.

[jacobolus]

Proud anti-semitic white nationalist (neo-Nazi but they changed the name to “alt right” because Nazi doesn’t sound good anymore) Steve Bannon is going to be Trump’s “chief strategist”. http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/t ... ist-231304

Confederate flags flying at Veterans Day parade in California https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... ay-parade/

[andrewjoy]

Proud anti-semitic white nationalist (neo-Nazi but they changed the name to “alt right” because Nazi doesn’t sound good anymore) Steve Bannon is going to be Trump’s “chief strategist”. http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/t ... ist-231304

Confederate flags flying at Veterans Day parade in California https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... ay-parade/

Quick quick , get out of the US before they start gassing minorities, i mean the streets are already full of trumps death squads right ?

Oh wait no , they are full of people protesting against democracy doing exactly what they said Trump supporters would do, not accepting the election.

And oh no a flag a actual flag, how dare people support there own heritage.

The left fucked themselves by putting forward a a warmongering corrupt sociopath as there candidate and she lost.

Accept it.

[fohat]

Bernie was also right about just about everything, and he could have beaten Trump handily.

After your grossly inaccurate prognostications regarding the election results, I thought you would have left the predictions to someone else; or at least until they were forgotten

and I will be very surprised if he receives over 60 million votes.

I dug up your statement and I was mistaken. You weren't wrong after all, just surprised. Sorry.

I was beyond surprised that he received very close to the 60M number, "astonished" might even be an inadequate adjective.

And I stand by my assertion that Bernie would have beaten Trump - their fundamental message addressed the same fundamental problem.

But between Trump's complete lack of knowledge and experience, combined with mega-tons of ugly baggage, and Bernie's impeccable credentials and squeaky-clean background, voters would have seen a clear and distinct difference and easily made the right decision.

[andrewjoy]

Bernie's impeccable credentials and squeaky-clean background, voters would have seen a clear and distinct difference and easily made the right decision.

I agree , but to call it the correct decision is subjective.

Correct in out view yes, but not for people who supported Trump.

If Bernie was on the ticket yes , he would be a no brainier in my view.

But honestly , with the choices they where given they made the right one.

[webwit]

Bernie was more on the left, but would have chosen the same demonizing strategy to set up people against each other (some still haven't snapped out of it *cough*), while Trump, trying to do the same, would have aimed at different things than he had with Clinton. Further to the left is more distance from the middle. I don't think it's a given that Bernie would have won. Maybe he would have lost even more. Who knows. It's no longer relevant.

So we'll never know if Bernie would have saved the lower and middle classes by raising their taxes to create an even bigger government.

[jacobolus]

I think Sanders would have had great difficulty against a concerted GOP message machine. They would spend the whole campaign talking about how he was a communist who wanted to double your tax bill, etc., and all the racists would still come out for Trump but so would the suburban white professionals, and minority turnout would be as low or lower than it was. (Yes, it’s illogical that people don’t recognize Sanders’s lifetime of fighting for civil rights. But that’s how it goes.)

Against Trump, Sanders might have a better chance than Clinton (probably comparable overall), but I think Sanders would very likely lose to Rubio, Jeb!, or the like.

Disclaimer: I voted for Sanders and I like his message a lot. His campaign was unprepared and disorganized, but it’s hard to fault him for that considering how little anyone (including him) originally expected out of the run, and they were trying to organize a real campaign only at the last minute.

[webwit]

Sounds like your country is in a lot of trouble. Like, even if Clinton or Bernie would have won, that's still approx 60 million racists in there.

[vivalarevolución]

Proud anti-semitic white nationalist (neo-Nazi but they changed the name to “alt right” because Nazi doesn’t sound good anymore) Steve Bannon is going to be Trump’s “chief strategist”. http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/t ... ist-231304

Trump is only one man, but the people he surrounds himself with are the scary part. Steve Bannon is solely looking out for his own interests and agenda and power by feeding complete misinformation. Mike Pence solely looked out for his own agenda and every person he appointed in the Indiana state government that I have interacted with has done exactly the same thing. They don't care about governance, they don't care about the mission of their agencies, they don't care about the people they are governing, then don't care if the government is stripping human rights. All they care about is pushing their own agenda, rallying their base, feeding their ego, and whatever is the next step on their agenda. These are decrepit human beings.

And not like the Democrats are squeaky clean. Most of us have learned that. I just have not personally met any of them that will be in high level government positions.

A robot resembling a woman that runs my government agency is being talked about as the head of the EPA. She is potentially a psychopath that should not be in charge of anything more than a bake sale. There was talk that our new Republican governor would appoint someone else because they were picking up on her instability, but the new vice president likes her and he might drag her to Washington.

This election is hitting too close to home. Like I'm watching it unfold from afar like so many of you, I feel like I'm in the thick of a dystopian novel. Trump's got a new reality show, and it's the entire fucking country. I want it to stop, but I wake up every day and it's all too real.

[webwit]

Did Newt Gingrich get a job yet? Now there's a fascist.

[vivalarevolución]

Did Newt Gingrich get a job yet? Now there's a fascist.

Guys like Newt, Christie, Guiliani, Pence and Palin knew their best chance at getting the jobs they always coveted was latching themselves to the president-elect. These people had become punchlines. It looked like political suicide to attach themselves to the president-elect. And yet it worked. They now look like geniuses, and the rest of us are fools.

By the way, the president-elect doesn't like to do actual work. He's a showman, an entertainer, an attention seeker. My current unimpressive, slimy, theologian governor will be running the show.

The fact that the president-elect does not enjoy the actual day-to-day of doing hard work gives me some comfort that he won't screw things up too much, won't be too diabolical with his planning, and probably just quit after a year or two. On the other hand, the people he is surrounded with truly should not be in charge of anything substantial, and are far scarier. They are the people that he is handing the reins to. They want the status and power and prestige, and they will take advantage of that position. In the link I shared, just look at the smiles on their faces, compared to the president-elect.

The only chance for this country is for all the factions that are intentionally divided, but actually feel much of the same way and want the same things out of life, to put aside our petty differences and hold the elected representatives accountable rather than see them as our saviors and then demand some actual changes. Considering my understanding of human nature and behavior, we often allow ourselves to be manipulated and get caught up in petty differences.

But who knows, I've been surprised before.

[webwit]

By the way, the president-elect doesn't like to do actual work. He's a showman, an entertainer, an attention seeker. My current unimpressive, slimy, theologian governor will be running the show.

I think he'll be getting a lot of "help" from his "friends", but he's a typical narcissist businessman workaholic? It's not the right argument.

[fohat]

Against Trump, Sanders might have a better chance than Clinton ....

but I think Sanders would very likely lose to Rubio, Jeb!, or the like.

My point all along. Against any of the "conventional" Republicans, Hillary could have triumphed.

But her weaknesses played directly to Trump's strengths, whereas Bernie's sincerity would have neutralized Trump's shenanigans.

he's a typical narcissist businessman workaholic?

Hardly. He is certainly narcissistic, but far from typical, questionable as a businessman, and certainly no workaholic.

[webwit]

I don't believe in that. People like Clinton, Bernie and Trump, they are hard workers, have immense drive and ambition. Otherwise you really don't get where they got.

[vivalarevolución]

I don't believe in that. People like Clinton, Bernie and Trump, they are hard workers, have immense drive and ambition. Otherwise you really don't get where they got.

Good point. Perhaps it's a different kind of hard work we are talking about. Will the president-elect be pouring over policy papers and governing strategies, in an academic sense, and really working to improve his deep understanding of policy and operations of the US government? Probably not. Will he be glad handing, attending meetings, giving speeches, talking a lot, emulating the campaign frenzy, whatever the heck presidents do? Probably more of that. The man has a lot of energy and drive, that's for sure.

[002]

He was basically meme'd into the White House...he's probably just as surprised as everyone else.

[seebart]

In his first interview after the election, Donald Trump tells CBS News' Leslie Stahl, "there could be some fencing," along the U.S. border with Mexico.

It's just a clip though...

Full video:

http://digg.com/2016/donald-trump-60-minutes-interview

[jacobolus]

Medicare is going to be replaced with private insurance for retired people, but with “subsidies”. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/rya ... re-in-2017

[jacobolus]

I agree, thanks for reminding me. My tone was meant to be condescending, but in an ironic sort of way. It was a reaction to a film clip he referred to . By presenting it, I can only assume that he was equating Trump to Hitler and the people who voted for him as either ignorant, gullible fools or malicious and complicit haters.

Actually I think the DOD-produced film is worth watching, because it clearly shows someone arguing against precisely the type of hateful rhetoric that Trump spent the whole campaign on, in a context which is quite clearly not “full-blown Hitler” yet. Obviously it’s a pro-tolerance, pro–Democracy, pro–open society propaganda film made in the context of the Cold War, so make of it what you will.

I don’t think that Trump supporters are all Nazis. I do however believe that most Trump voters are either {ignorant/too apathetic to pay attention or think about the campaign/easily swayed by propaganda}, greedy people lacking in empathy and imagination and basic worldly experience and any shred of civic pride, and/or angry racists. To be fair to them the news media in this country has been getting worse and worse for the past 30 years, and was especially bad throughout this campaign, and plenty of people these days are living in really weird little media bubbles (I wasted a lot of time reading right-wing opinion pieces during this campaign cycle, out of some mix of morbid curiosity and masochism, and they mash together deep misunderstandings of basic history/civics, outrageous leaps of logic, farcical double-standards, bitingly malicious undertones when they aren’t aggressively spiteful, and often flat-out lies; and that doesn’t even count the completely fake news dumped all over facebook, etc.; if I didn’t read anything else I would also probably turn into a conspiracy nutter).

[jacobolus]

Yay 2016 temperatures:


RIP Great Barrier Reef this year. It’s never coming back.

[andrewjoy]

I don’t think that Trump supporters are all Nazis. I do however believe that Trump voters are either {ignorant/too apathetic to pay attention or think about the campaign/easily swayed by propaganda}, greedy people lacking in empathy and imagination and basic worldly experience, and/or angry racists.

There you go again with the name calling, just beacuse they have a different view to you does not mean they are racist or sexist or whatever else the regressive left want to call them. This is EXACTLY why the left lost this vote and why the left lost the brexit vote also, beacuse they are so far up there own arse they cannot see that they are alienating people with this kind of thing. Discuss stuff , bring evidence that people are wrong , don't just say , oh your x y or z.

To be fair to them the news media in this country has been getting worse and worse for the past 30 years, and was especially bad throughout this campaign, and plenty of people these days are living in really weird little media bubbles

I totally 100% agree that the media is terrible and hid all the bad stuff reported on Clinton and big up every slightly dodgy thing trump said, your correct on this.

I think this has been posted before but its something everyone on the left ( myself included) should watch.

The current left is rotten to the core, its an example of power corrupting anyone who has it.

I honestly miss the days of the classic liberal, no identity politics no perpetual offended people , no safe spaces, just people being fair to all other people.

The US did have a candidate like that , unfortunately he was forced out by Clinton the democratic party and the media, funny how all that money Clinton has paid to people can change a vote for the nomination, is it not ?

We have been saying how terrible she is for ages , and you get called a sexist or a Bernie bro or whatever. Don't look so silly now do we.

[jacobolus]

andrewjoy: In your case, x, y, and z! And I’ll add “w”, piss-poor command of English grammar and orthography. Luckily post-Brexit all the educated folks will leave England, so there will be nobody left to judge you for it.

[jacobolus]

Time for a real-life Celebrity Apprentice

During their private White House meeting on Thursday, Mr. Obama walked his successor through the duties of running the country, and Mr. Trump seemed surprised by the scope, said people familiar with the meeting. Trump aides were described by those people as unaware that the entire presidential staff working in the West Wing had to be replaced at the end of Mr. Obama’s term.

After meeting with Mr. Trump, the only person to be elected president without having held a government or military position, Mr. Obama realized the Republican needs more guidance. He plans to spend more time with his successor than presidents typically do, people familiar with the matter said.

[andrewjoy]

andrewjoy: in your case, x, y, and z!

What are you implying?

If you are implying what i think you are you have missed the point of everything i tried to say.


EDIT

So because my grammar is poor (witch it is), you ignore the message?


To be clear, i am not glad that the right is rising across the western world, i am trying to say why the left is losing, because it is out of touch with normal people. The right was no different when they had been in power, they ignored the people and got voted out, thats how democracy works.

Misdirection, no platforming and name calling is just a way to shut people down. Your not doing anyone any favours by doing this, your showing the world you are not willing to let them speak as they may convince people your wrong.

Its not exclusive to the left by any means, the Christians did it as do almost all other religions, and i am sure the right do it too.