Massdrop Customer Support

[zslane]

[...] We have to think of MassDrop as something a little different than your conventional online store, at least for now. Let's complain about them being a poor Amazon.com only after they actually start trying to be an Amazon.com.

They sure are different from a store.
Aspects of their behaviour are very like Amazon's. But I agree, they fill a niche unserviced by other outlets - it's just they fill it in a way I object to.

That's fine. So long as the objections align with proper expectations for their intended service. I mean, it wouldn't make sense to complain that a Big Mac is the world's worst pizza...

[chuckdee]

chuckdee: From an individual customer's point of view Massdrop isn't a large-scale warehouse company - a store like mechanicalkeyboards.com or a community group buy would be closer. Neither of those require logins to see the items on offer. Granted it's a minor annoyance in comparison with the other things, but it's one more hurdle for a buyer to clear.

Have you ever looked at the entirety of what they do? They don't just service keyboards, though that would be a pretty good subsection. They service 12 different communities, and within each of those 5-10 products on average a day. Not exactly at Costco levels, but at a large enough level and selling enough lower than the MSRP, that I'm sure that their negotiations include the fact that the price will only be available to members. MechanicalKeyboards is a store front. A community group buy is a single person for a particular product. Neither of those are fair comparisons, IMO.

[Ray]

but at a large enough level and selling enough lower than the MSRP, that I'm sure that their negotiations include the fact that the price will only be available to members.

That doesn't make sense to me. If you are a company selling to them (or anyone else), you don't care where your product goes after you sell it to the reseller. You already made your cut.

Of course it matters who you are dealing with, the support you give them, etc... but that doesn't change my statement above, or at least I can't see a situation where it does.

[chuckdee]

but at a large enough level and selling enough lower than the MSRP, that I'm sure that their negotiations include the fact that the price will only be available to members.

That doesn't make sense to me. If you are a company selling to them (or anyone else), you don't care where your product goes after you sell it to the reseller. You already made your cut.

Of course it matters who you are dealing with, the support you give them, etc... but that doesn't change my statement above, or at least I can't see a situation where it does.

There's an MSRP/MAP for a reason, and as usual in these situations, it's not as simple as you might think it is. The manufacturer has many different retailers. If they sell to all of them at X, but negotiate a price at Y for some other retailers, guess what everyone that got it at X is going to do? Negotiate for Y. It's a very real thing that happens. And why do they negotiate? Volume, exposure... getting into Costco is a big boon for many manufacturers, as losing out on a spot is a big hurt to the bottom line- which is why you diversify where your product is- and your deals with some will definitely hurt that quest to diversify.

https://consumerist.com/2007/09/26/what ... sed-price/

https://www.sba.gov/blogs/how-minimum-a ... ng-efforts

[zslane]

Traditionally, a members-only business trades the value of its membership, as the captive target of highly specific advertising, for lower prices from a vendor. Basically a vendor wants to reach its target audience more efficiently and at lower cost to themselves, and will sometimes offer discounts in exchange for reaching that highly-focused membership (especially if it is also large and eager to spend money). As usual, it comes down to basic business arrangements between entities, not some conspiracy of social engineering (which some folks believe regarding almost anything requiring active "membership").

[citrojohn]

Thanks, zslane, that's another reason to stay off Massdrop. I'd forgotten my membership had an inherent value to these companies, and I don't appreciate having it traded for discounts. So I'll give such value as is in my membership to Deskthority and other community-based enterprises rather than Massdrop.

[Spharx]

Interesting, so that is the reasoning behind their silly login wall. I had suspected something entirely different
MAPs don't seem to be legal here in Europe so that may be a reason why some never heard of such a thing.

[zslane]

It's interesting to me how others see the same issue. I'm more than happy to become a "member" because I receive numerous benefits from doing so in this case:

1. I get discounts on custom items I am interested in.
2. I get access to things not available elsewhere (like custom keycap sets).
3. I get keyboard-oriented product offerings gathered in one convenient place.

And so far I've found no downside to being a member. Membership costs nothing. I do not get e-mail spam from MassDrop. I don't get e-mail spam from any of MassDrop's vendors or even other members. I am completely at a loss as to what the practical objection might be towards registering as a member.

[chuckdee]

Thanks, zslane, that's another reason to stay off Massdrop. I'd forgotten my membership had an inherent value to these companies, and I don't appreciate having it traded for discounts. So I'll give such value as is in my membership to Deskthority and other community-based enterprises rather than Massdrop.

They're trading it for discounts... for you. Just as other GBs here or anywhere else do. All MOQs are is an agreement to purchase at a price for a certain number of orders, i.e. using your purchase to guarantee a price. But, to each his own.

[davkol]

derp

[andrewjoy]

In order to see the drops, you have to log in. To do that, you have to sign up. To do that, you have to agree to Massderp's ToS. Including fun parts like this:

You acknowledge and agree that Massdrop may, in its sole discretion, modify, add or remove any portion of these Terms of Service at any time and in any manner, including the terms of Massdrop membership, by posting revised Terms of Service on the Site. You may not amend or modify these Terms of Service under any circumstances. The current version of these Terms of Service is available at http://www.massdrop.com/terms. It is your responsibility to check periodically for any changes we make to the Terms of Service. Your continued use of this Site after any changes to the Terms of Service means you accept the changes.

they cannot change what you sign without telling you that is bull shit , dont care what the ToS says that is against so many regulations

[davkol]

derp

[ohaimark]

I warned their legal department about that. No change.

I don't really care, though, because if they change the TOS without notifying you you could sue the pants of off them in a heartbeat and win.

[zslane]

If I had a dollar for every shady EULA sealing a piece of software or "implied" by the purchase of something, I'd be a rich man. These terms and agreements are of questionable legal value even to the companies that issue them, but that's what you get in a world run by lawyers. There is no practical reason to single-out MassDrop for this particular sin unless you have some other axe to grind with them.

[citrojohn]

They're trading it for discounts... for you.

They're trading it for discounts for their members. Assuming the drop reaches MOQ. And doing it in an objectionable way.

Just as other GBs here or anywhere else do.

Not so - GBs here don't trade my membership for discounts, they trade my confirmed order or my expression of interest in an interest check. As you put it, they are

using your purchase to guarantee a price.

[my bold type]

But, to each his own.

Exactly. We're both acting in good faith on our own principles - and we're not going to persuade each other. So we must just agree to disagree.

I think I've explained my objections to Massdrop well enough that they can discern what they need to do to win my custom. So I'll end my contributions to this thread here. Thanks for the discussion, everyone - it's clarified my thoughts on the matter.

[webwit]

If I had a dollar for every shady EULA sealing a piece of software or "implied" by the purchase of something, I'd be a rich man. These terms and agreements are of questionable legal value even to the companies that issue them, but that's what you get in a world run by lawyers. There is no practical reason to single-out MassDrop for this particular sin unless you have some other axe to grind with them.

This is the "What if OJ" argument. It goes something like this:

Judge to OJ: Are you guilty of this murder?
OJ to judge: (Instead of "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit") Yes, but there is no practical reason to single me out, if I'd had a dollar for every murderer who went free, I'd be a rich man. Do you have some other axe to grind with me?
Judge to OJ: ...

[chuckdee]

There is no practical reason to single-out MassDrop for this particular sin unless you have some other axe to grind with them.

I find myself agreeing with that statement. And I find myself applying that to most of these points, as many others try it on a small scale, and denigrate MD for succeeding on a larger scale and not doing it the way that they would.

Concerns over how they treat the community, especially those that are the reasons for their success (matt3o stands out) or policies related to product or lack of responsiveness when the vendor gives them bad or unclear copy, or using the visitors of their site as beta participants of a sketchy chat system en masse after only a limited period of beta, or not disclosing how they notify you of drops ending or many other things along those lines are valid IMO. Scalding them for not disclosing their bottom line or even having one or their negotiation tactics with vendors I personally view as less so.

[zslane]

If I had a dollar for every shady EULA sealing a piece of software or "implied" by the purchase of something, I'd be a rich man. These terms and agreements are of questionable legal value even to the companies that issue them, but that's what you get in a world run by lawyers. There is no practical reason to single-out MassDrop for this particular sin unless you have some other axe to grind with them.

This is the "What if OJ" argument. It goes something like this:

Judge to OJ: Are you guilty of this murder?
OJ to judge: (Instead of "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit") Yes, but there is no practical reason to single me out, if I'd had a dollar for every murderer who went free, I'd be a rich man. Do you have some other axe to grind with me?
Judge to OJ: ...

Well, in this case the crime is writing up an unenforceable ToS. In other words, an act of little to no consequence to anyone. It exists to make lawyers happy, not to punish members. I don't think Nicole's or Ron's family feel the same way about what O.J. did.

[zslane]

They're trading it for discounts... for you.

They're trading it for discounts for their members. Assuming the drop reaches MOQ. And doing it in an objectionable way.

I think I've explained my objections to Massdrop well enough that they can discern what they need to do to win my custom.

I confess to not understanding your objections at all, actually. But I'd like to understand.

Your objections appear to be solely focused on the concept of membership. Do you see any value of becoming a member of any organization under any circumstances? I mean, when membership to something only benefits you, what exactly fuels an objection to it?

[webwit]

Well, in this case the crime is writing up an unenforceable ToS. In other words, an act of little to no consequence to anyone. It exists to make lawyers happy, not to punish members. I don't think Nicole's or Ron's family feel the same way about what O.J. did.

The point of the epitome at the other end of the scale is to show how ridiculous the original argument was, not the distance between the consequences.

[zslane]

But when the distance between consequences is so vast, the comparison becomes stretched beyond rhetorical usefulness.

[chuckdee]

But when the distance between consequences is so vast, the comparison becomes stretched beyond rhetorical usefulness.

I think this conversation was beyond rhetorical usefulness a few posts back.

[webwit]

But when the distance between consequences is so vast, the comparison becomes stretched beyond rhetorical usefulness.

No it doesn't unless you're such a fan of a bad company that you wish any bad behavior away with empty rhetoric. I never understand why consumers try to defend such companies. If you don't care, ok, but why actively defend.

[Techno Trousers]

Just out of curiosity... To those who have philosophical objections to Massdrop: Do you buy from other online retailers? Are there any that you trust with your information (purchase history, etc)? I'm just wondering if a lot of the Massdrop dislike is a dislike of the state of online shipping and directed advertising in general.

FWIW, I've bought a few things through MD, and haven't had any issues, so I can't speak to their past-sales support. I do have to admit I'm spoiled by Amazon prime and get annoyed by having to pay shipping. But I recognize that's an unreasonable expectation on a retailer that doesn't charge for membership.

Hmm... Now that I think about it: Massdrop Prime with unlimited free shipping, anyone?

[webwit]

It's the same logical fallacy. Stop pointing at others.

[chuckdee]

But when the distance between consequences is so vast, the comparison becomes stretched beyond rhetorical usefulness.

No it doesn't unless you're such a fan of a bad company that you wish any bad behavior away with empty rhetoric.

... or attack with the same?

[Techno Trousers]

I'm not pointing anything. I'm genuinely curious to know what people think is a good online retailing company, if any? I haven't really seen any specific evidence presented that MD is "bad", just that some people don't like certain aspects of how they operate, or perhaps had a bad experience with them.

I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone for boycotting a company. I do it myself from time to time. But I also wouldn't begrudge anyone running a GB any way they see fit. I'm just glad to be able to take advantage of GBs I'm interested in, whatever form they take. I lived through the terrible rubber dome drought of the 1990s, and I'm thankful that we have so much enthusiasm and so many choices now.

[webwit]

In the EU a company cannot change the ToS without notifying the customers one month in advance, during which the customer can cancel any running deal or subscription without penalty. What Massdrop has would simply be illegal. It's also simply immoral. It's a contract where one party can change the contract without notification at any time. Nuff said. Why defend it? It's wrong.

[ohaimark]

I think webwit's rhetorical point was valid, even if the consequences differ.

It's a binary issue. Is it wrong according to the law? Yes. Is it less wrong according to the law if people get away with it? No.

Did this debate reach beyond the point of usefulness? Almost certainly.

[webwit]

I'd like to buy from Massdrop and then change my part of the deal without telling them, and only pay half!