deskthority

XMIT wrote:

fohat wrote: Butt-ugly in every way but I still want to feel it.

Yeah, the aesthetics are a little polarizing. Some folks really like the white on bamboo look, some don't.

The sliders do sit on top of the body.

The ABS body is much more conservative as are the black key caps, like this board which should be in my hands tomorrow:

You answered my main concerns elsewhere.

Those are some of the most horrid key caps that I have ever seen, up there with the "Jizz" keyboards and others of that ilk, but if you can use Cherry gear then the problem goes away.

The bamboo is OK although I would prefer black or plain metal. But those exposed screws are heinous.

I like the idea of the keys sitting up, I have used my F-122 "naked" pretty much constantly for a couple of years now.

The way these switches / housings are designed it seems that any changes in sliders and housing design, such as tactility, could be done entirely by changing by clipping a new housing onto the pcb completely without soldering anything. Is that correct?

I still very much want one of these. I think this is an excellent development, and it's got a load of features I really like. I've got some pretty interesting things and comparisons in mind for a video on this.

Virtureal wrote: The way these switches / housings are designed it seems that any changes in sliders and housing design, such as tactility, could be done entirely by changing by clipping a new housing onto the pcb completely without soldering anything. Is that correct?

Yep, that's exactly right. In theory these could be manufactured to be Alps or Topre compatible as well. The housings attach on to the PCB with two little clips, that's it!

XMIT wrote: We're looking into some ways to seal the bamboo so that it stands up to water and doesn't warp or otherwise change any dimensions.

Maybe the bamboo could be treated with white semi-transparent lacquer or black woodstain and satin clearcoat.
(only because I like how those looks on wood...)

XMIT wrote: You do get more friction with off center key presses.

That's a shame ...

XMIT wrote: Speaking of configuration - it is possible to select the exact actuation point by changing a resistor value on the board. We're still thinking through ways to offer adjustable actuation heights without sacrificing waterproof operation.

I would suggest a resistor tree (like how people used to make home-made DACs for the parallel port back in the day...) and the setting in firmware in non-volatile memory on the chip.

Or would analogue sensing be possible with Hall Effect sensors?

One more thing: How fast is it?

Thats really interesting. Too bad its linear only, I wonder if we could replicate a bump adding another magnet to the sides.

Btw, a guy I know bought a similar board from aliexpress that has a switch that looks pretty much the same. BUT, looking closely, his does not appears to have a magnet, but two springs instead. Well, at least the two spare ones that came with the package, as I couldnt convince him to open his keyboard ;_;
Slider color was also brown, not black.

Here some pics and link to where he bought
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 55036.html

http://imgur.com/a/U4wqX

An interesting keyboard for so little moolah, looks like a winner here on DT .

60% all the way. 60% ISO is even better. Can't wait for the GB.

XMIT wrote: Speaking of configuration - it is possible to select the exact actuation point by changing a resistor value on the board. We're still thinking through ways to offer adjustable actuation heights without sacrificing waterproof operation.

If you actually find a good solution for this then you would have a great marketing blurb for gamers (not that I agree that it will make a difference in gaming performance, but I've seen an increase in demand for this and people on reddit regularly come from the OSU! sub and ask for keyboard recommendations with a high actuation point.)

Findecanor wrote:

XMIT wrote: You do get more friction with off center key presses.

That's a shame ...

To be fair, this was a really aggressive, press the corner of the key cap sideways, press. I can't think of any switch - even Topre - that does well in this case.

Findecanor wrote:

XMIT wrote: Speaking of configuration - it is possible to select the exact actuation point by changing a resistor value on the board. We're still thinking through ways to offer adjustable actuation heights without sacrificing waterproof operation.

I would suggest a resistor tree (like how people used to make home-made DACs for the parallel port back in the day...) and the setting in firmware in non-volatile memory on the chip.

Or would analogue sensing be possible with Hall Effect sensors?

I had a similar idea of using a resistor bridge or at least selecting different pre-set resistances. I'll chat with the manufacturer about this. We could maybe do a Royal Kludge style choice of two different set points.

Analog sensing is inherently possible with any Hall sensor but it depends on the amplifiers after the sensor outputting an analog level as opposed to a digital signal. I can ask but I believe this implementation uses digital logic coming out of the switches.

Findecanor wrote: One more thing: How fast is it?

I don't have exact figures, but, fast enough that it can trigger spurious "bounce" events in Switch Hitter. That means 1-2ms response times observed.

XMIT wrote:

Techno Trousers wrote: What does the manufacturer indicate as far as expected switch lifetime? I know magnets lose potency over time, so is that the limiting factor?

IIRC they gave a really conservative 50 million strokes. I don't know why this is - I'll ask! Moreover, since every single component is trivially replaceable (the sliders pop out easily with two clips and the sensors are straightforward surface mount parts).

I asked, and, the manufacturer responded that the switches are rated to 100 million key strokes! Believe it or not the failure point is the neodymium magnet! Apparently, in extreme situations, the magnet can break, or be damaged (I assume demagnetized) at 150 degrees (I assume Celsius).

I will say that, while the magnets do stay put pretty well, they are just press fit into the sliders. It might help to epoxy the magnets into place to make them even more reliable. I can ask about this too.

lepidus wrote: [...]a guy I know bought a similar board from aliexpress that has a switch that looks pretty much the same. BUT, looking closely, his does not appears to have a magnet, but two springs instead.[...]http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 55036.html
http://imgur.com/a/U4wqX

Now that is something I have not seen before. The sliders look extremely similar to what these keyboards have. That could either be a capacitive sensor or some weird membrane setup. The little conical spring is what suggests capacitive to me.

Hall is still better than capacitive when it comes to waterproofing. Water interferes with capacitive sensing.

Oh, one detail I forgot to mention earlier: these keyboards are only available with an attached cable. The reason for this is that the cable is soldered to the PCB and then the solder joints are epoxy coated. This provides waterproofing that a connector could not.

This is very interesting.

I would really like one of these 60% boards. I looked at their website on alibaba, but couldn't find it. Do you have a direct link or something like that?

I really think Hall-effect is the way forward for keyboards: easy to modify the mount and feel, long life and replaceable parts. I'd buy one at that price level - and this is the first keyboard I've seriously considered spending >£100 on. Ideally I'd have a non-RGB non-winkeyed JIS-layout board, with proper old-style Japanese-text extra keys, but that's probably asking for the moon. So, fullsize ISO for me, with bamboo case and exposed screws (heads on top, please ). Caps in some interesting pale colour (mint green, perhaps) and preferably with a less fanciful typeface. Or would anyone like to sell me some yellowed beige caps from a never-Retrobrighted Cherry board?

The thing that really killed it for me was that this round would have had to have double shipping costs, and I know how steep shipping is from XMIT's place, so I really couldn't afford one. I'd happily review one for the guys that made it though .

XMIT wrote:

Findecanor wrote: One more thing: How fast is it?

I don't have exact figures, but, fast enough that it can trigger spurious "bounce" events in Switch Hitter. That means 1-2ms response times observed.

The enclosed leaflet says "1000 Hz".

More keyboard thoughts to come when I get a chance to write something.

I'm waiting to hear for future judgement calls from XMIT but I'm really interested in this; particularly the 60%.

I wish they would ditch the RGB and 26 keyroller (Non 6kro USB Standard) nonsense.

Can you ask about ordering keyboards without RGB or keycaps to save a few bucks?

got mine too.



The switches are good, really good. The keyboard as a whole is a little of a letdown but I'm told it's just a prototype, many things need to be fixed starting with the firmware. Full review to come.

the_marsbar wrote: This is very interesting.

I would really like one of these 60% boards. I looked at their website on alibaba, but couldn't find it. Do you have a direct link or something like that?

For now, please hang on until I get a group buy going. I think it will be worth the wait while we get whatever issues sorted out.

Chyros wrote: The thing that really killed it for me was that this round would have had to have double shipping costs, and I know how steep shipping is from XMIT's place, so I really couldn't afford one. I'd happily review one for the guys that made it though .

So, in the end, the manufacturer shipped DHL packages direct to everyone. This ended up costing the same amount but was faster, and much less work for me.

Chyros, you can see if matt3o is willing to lend you his board. hopefully shipping Italy to the UK is more reasonable. Though all things considered I'd rather have you review a later board with more fixes, instead of making public all the known deficiencies in this revision.

XMIT wrote: Chyros, you can see if matt3o is willing to lend you his board. hopefully shipping Italy to the UK is more reasonable. Though all things considered I'd rather have you review a later board with more fixes, instead of making public all the known deficiencies in this revision.

Yes, that'd be nice of course. I'll really have pretty much only one chance, two at most, to review this board, and although I really like the idea behind it, I'm not going to do a biased review (which I've refused to do since the beginning).

it is really hard to make a review of such a preliminary product. The switches are really fantastic, they still have that original hall effect feeling... with that deaf profound "stock" sound. They are a little "pingy" but XMIT told me that he is working with the manufacturer to fix just that.

Everything else need some work (unfortunately I also have a couple of not working LEDs)... So much that I'm seriously thinking to take the switches apart and rebuild the keyboard from scratch

My wish list for the 60%:

1. Eliminate the RGB.
2. Reduce size of the bezel.
3. Stick with standard 6KRO USB for maximum BIOS/OS compatibility. If someone has a problem with this please explain to me why you need NKRO.
4. While I prefer it come with no keycaps; if they can use something more respectable that would be ok.
5. Make it as silent as possible.
6. As little keycap wobble as possible.
7. Keep the hardwired cable.

XMIT, thanks for the very thorough reply to my questions earlier in the thread. Watching this with interest.

My consolidated wish list for full-size boards:

1. Offer both 108 and 104 key versions (for ANSI).
2. Offer both black and off-white cases.
3. Offer a barebones option.
4. Make as silent as possible.
5. Eliminate the RGB.

It would take all five of the above to make it worth it (to me) to replace all my Filcos and Varmilos with new Hall Effect boards.

Why is a hard wired cable a plus?
I for myself like plugable more as I can use my own cables

The board is definitly interesting, exspecially the switches

I don't see how RGB is a downside. I really despise backlit keyboards but you can just keep the LEDs off...

derp

I feel dirty saying this, but I will probably enjoy the "clackiness" of the switches.

When I get mine I'll showcase it with a Cherry doubleshot white-on-black keycap set. I think that will set off the bamboo nicely.

matt3o wrote: I don't see how RGB is a downside. I really despise backlit keyboards but you can just keep the LEDs off...

It's a principle of minimizing complexity; why add components that I never intend to use? They only represent a potential point of failure I don't need.