deskthority

Nobody got any kind of patent number from alps. Any kind of patent we found was speculation at best. Do you mean the spec sheet that I got from Threebond after I emailed them directly?

No, it turns out it was just a misunderstanding due to typo. Anyway, so that patent is not a reliable source, it was just conjecture on our part. Ok that's good to know, because it eliminates the aliminum soap approach.

And to eliminate any further confusion, and unecessary arguing, I will let you know which lubes I am investigating currently and what the "Magic NeKtar" is now. Here are the three lubes I had ordered after my research:

Lube 1: OKS 1110
Lube 2: OKS 477
Lube 3: Nyogel 767A

The first two are from a german industrial lubricant manufacturer, from which I found two greases that were close to what I think should do the trick for ALPS.

I have received those two and have already tested them. The OKS 1110, which I had some hopes for, did not lubricate enough to make any good difference. But, OKS 477 actually did make a good difference, as it did lubricate the switches (and eliminated the dreaded stick-slip friction), far better than anything else that I have already tried.

It does come close - some people, I guess, would say very close - to the original lube, but still, not quite in my opinion... And this is the one that I named Magic NeKtar in the teaser video.

It is certainly a big improvement in every way, and it is not affecting the switch negatively in sound or feel. It is especially a good alternative, if you have cleaned the original lube off your switches and you are left with no other choice.

The third lube, the Nyogel 767A, is the one that I am having high hopes for and I am betting my money on. It has the same base oil (polyalfaolefin or PAO) as OKS 477 and the same thickener (silica), BUT is even more viscous, very viscous in fact, close to 50,000 cSt at 25c. Which, if I have made my calculations right, it will be almost as viscous as the original.

And as the OKS 477 actually performed "good" in all areas (no sound alteration, sliding got a lot smoother, feeling got closer to the original etc) and considering that it has a lower viscosity, then this means that Nyogel 767A, with its higher viscosity, is becoming more probable to be the lube that we search for. The lube that can finally be used in place of the original. This is why I got excited, because OKS 447 proved to be in the right direction, being so good by itself, and that raised my expectations.

But until I get my hands on the Nyogel, I can't say for sure and this is why I didn't want to reveal the name of the OKS so soon. I don't want to hype OKS 477 IF nyogel turns out to be "the one". If it turns out to be garbage, then I guess OKS 477 would be top of the hill for now.

So to summarise: The only thing I know for certain right now, is that OKS 477 is a good lube for Blue and Orange SKCM switches, that mimics, up to a point, the original. It certainly improves it and it does make it smoother, but it needs to be even more viscous though. And that is what I hope Nyogel 767A will be and will turn out to be a great OG lube replacement.

Ok so now you know, I hope this will ease your impatience a little.

Lynx_Carpathica wrote: 02 Jan 2021, 13:44 Dunno... Some plastic prytool. It's 3 yrs old but haven't broken yet. So that's neat.
Datecode inside slider: 5C, top: 26N
9C, 18A

Branded top
Seems to be shiny, like white alps. Maybe that's the reason why doesn't it feel like crap after I wiped it down completely.

Just some more info:
-FCC ID: BCGM3501
-Ser NO:AL1080RLM3501Z
-Bottom-right text: 825-2031-A
-Date code: '89
-ISO Layout

767A actually is a dampening grease, aviasim gamers use it for HOTAS.

mindgame wrote: 03 Jan 2021, 18:51 767A actually is a dampening grease, aviasim gamers use it for HOTAS.

Yeap, they use it on joysticks and seems that is great for that. Precisely because of its dampening effect is why I think it might do the trick.

Btw damping greases, are just highly viscous versions of regular ones. Just marketing gimmick.

NeK wrote: 03 Jan 2021, 21:20

mindgame wrote: 03 Jan 2021, 18:51 767A actually is a dampening grease, aviasim gamers use it for HOTAS.

Yeap, they use it on joysticks and seems that is great for that. Precisely because of its dampening effect is why I think it might do the trick.

Btw damping greases, are just highly viscous versions of regular ones. Just marketing gimmick.

I have high viscous grease (perhaps grade 3 or higher) containing PFPE oil with Silica thickener. Made in Russia. Removes binding almost at all on used switches. But smoothness not great. Will check with good ones.

In Russia greases use you as lubricant. /s

The NLGI is not really about viscosity, is about how stiff (the consistency of) the thickener is, viscosity is how viscous the base oil is. (PFPE in your case).

Can you find its TDS? It seems interesting

Btw one more lube that I have in mind to try, is the Nyogel 774VH. But it is very expensive, like 80 euros per tube or something. Does anyone perhaps have some?

NeK wrote: 03 Jan 2021, 21:37 In Russia greases use you as lubricant. /s

The NLGI is not really about viscosity, is about how stiff (the consistency of) the thickener is, viscosity is how viscous the base oil is. (PFPE in your case).

Can you find its TDS? It seems interesting

Yep, sry, i mean it's stiff.
As u know, there's several base oil types - mineral, PAO, PFPE, silicone oil, alkylbenzene, polyglycolic, various esters etc.
So, PFPE by nature cannot have be so viscous as PAO: ~3500-5000 cSt maximum at 20'C, and ~2000 cSt at 40'C
Nyogel 767A PAO base oil has typical measured kinematic viscosity ~ 28000 cSt at 40'C, and ~50000 at 25'C as u said.
Russian PFPE grease base oil kinematic viscosity is ~ 300 cSt at 20'C. It's interesting because it has similar consistency and same thickener type (silica).
Maybe worth to compare with 767A to help with answer the question "is it all about viscosity?"

I've ordered some OKS 477 as it was dirt cheap and I'm not really sold on Nyogel 760 or 767A. It was less than half the price of 760 or 767A for almost double the amount. Will report back, I have a batch of very scratchy greens which responded okay to a baggie of Threebond silicone grease I got off my mate but not in any significant kind of 'wow!' factor way.

This is why I wanted to know, by the way. I'm not that bothered about finding the perfect original alps lube replica, one that's decent enough to do a good job and reasonably cheap is more than enough for me.

Ok would love to hear your experience with it.

Do you have any other lube to compare it with?

mindgame wrote: 04 Jan 2021, 01:48

NeK wrote: 03 Jan 2021, 21:37 In Russia greases use you as lubricant. /s

The NLGI is not really about viscosity, is about how stiff (the consistency of) the thickener is, viscosity is how viscous the base oil is. (PFPE in your case).

Can you find its TDS? It seems interesting

Yep, sry, i mean it's stiff.
As u know, there's several base oil types - mineral, PAO, PFPE, silicone oil, alkylbenzene, polyglycolic, various esters etc.
So, PFPE by nature cannot have be so viscous as PAO: ~3500-5000 cSt maximum at 20'C, and ~2000 cSt at 40'C
Nyogel 767A PAO base oil has typical measured kinematic viscosity ~ 28000 cSt at 40'C, and ~50000 at 25'C as u said.
Russian PFPE grease base oil kinematic viscosity is ~ 300 cSt at 20'C. It's interesting because it has similar consistency and same thickener type (silica).
Maybe worth to compare with 767A to help with answer the question "is it all about viscosity?"

Well, there is a weird thing that buffles me. The results that I got with OKS 477 and OKS 1110 is that the later claims to have a higher viscosity base oil, however the 477 was the one that actually did have a positive effect. Why is that? Well, they both have the same consistency (NLGI 3) and the same thickener (silica), so their real difference is in the type of their base oil. 477 is PAO whereas the 1110 is Silicon Oil. So it seems the PAO somehow works better. maybe it is made of heavier molecular structure? I dont know.

Hey guys, I'd like to ask you to test theese lubes on SKCM Whites as well. They are widely available, tho quite of them are suboptimal. I think we'd all benefit from knowing what'd happen if you lube them with theese crazy expensive greases/oils.

Are you sure viscosity is really a good thing? As in thicker is better? Ever try running in molasses? Slowing down the response of switches doesn't sound like such a good thing to me.

Thick viscosity is necessary to eliminate the stick-slip while sliding, in accordance with the paper I have mentioned, so I accordingly I assume (not *sure*) that yes, the thicker the better. Also all the good condition blue alps boards, especially 10/10 one that I have, have a very viscous and stiff feeling, resulting also in a dampened (i.e. a tiny bit slower than without) sliding.

The response is not slower enough to make any difference, but there is a definite dampening going on.

Noob question, sorry about it: does viscosity relate to film strenght?

I'm pretty sure I have found lube on OA2 Clones as well. Same kind of deal, as I found on my SKCM Ivory.

Before this I remember you said you tried using sandpaper to smooth out scratched alps housings. What grit of sandpaper did you use? Sanding, in combination with good lubricant might be able to save many alps switches

shallot wrote: 08 Jan 2021, 11:39 I've ordered some OKS 477 as it was dirt cheap and I'm not really sold on Nyogel 760 or 767A. It was less than half the price of 760 or 767A for almost double the amount. Will report back, I have a batch of very scratchy greens which responded okay to a baggie of Threebond silicone grease I got off my mate but not in any significant kind of 'wow!' factor way.

This is why I wanted to know, by the way. I'm not that bothered about finding the perfect original alps lube replica, one that's decent enough to do a good job and reasonably cheap is more than enough for me.

How did it go? Asking because I want to use it on my greens as well.

TNT wrote: 22 Jan 2021, 14:00

shallot wrote: 08 Jan 2021, 11:39 I've ordered some OKS 477 as it was dirt cheap and I'm not really sold on Nyogel 760 or 767A. It was less than half the price of 760 or 767A for almost double the amount. Will report back, I have a batch of very scratchy greens which responded okay to a baggie of Threebond silicone grease I got off my mate but not in any significant kind of 'wow!' factor way.

This is why I wanted to know, by the way. I'm not that bothered about finding the perfect original alps lube replica, one that's decent enough to do a good job and reasonably cheap is more than enough for me.

How did it go? Asking because I want to use it on my greens as well.

Supply issues at the moment, apparently I can expect it to ship by the end of the month.

Ahh, shame. I don't wanna wait, so I'm going to order some myself and try it on mine.

Going to follow this thread, looks like I might be restoring my SKCM browns back to their original glory. Also my SGI Granite.

I have great news.

I managed to found a lube formula that works as good as the OG! It comes very close to it in all terms and aspects and it does feels exceptionally smooth and pleasant.

Before you get all excited though, this is still premature result, as I haven't concluded all the tests and haven't tried all the possible mixes, but it is obvious that this is now only a matter of time with some trial and error. Also please to keep in mind that this must be tested thoroughly and it must also be confirmed by others independently.

So here's the details of my tests so far. As you know, my bets were on the NyoGel 767A, which it took a whole month to arrive. But it finally did, just a few days ago. Today, I tried it and I applied it to a few BLUE ALPS switches, using various different techniques and also by mixing it together with other lubes. I did side-by-side tests with known good switches with OG lube and one without any lube at all (as a test control).

I was immediately surprised by the 767A as it worked wonderfully from the first try, giving the switch the same qualities as the OG lube does:

• corner presses are ungodly smooth
• it has an amazing "velvet" feel as it slides
• No feeling of harsness of any kind during the whole travel
• No stickiness
• the sound is good, clear and deep base-y, just like the OG. However it does makes it more quiet or more softer. Or at least that's how I hear it.
• dust and debris doesn't stick to it
• stays in place no matter how hard you press, which means it will last for ages
• and it of course completely plastic safe, so no worries of it doing anything to the switch
• No other issues as far as I can found

However, there is one big difference: it is way, way more dampening than the OG and that is making the switch to be very heavy and very slow when doing corner presses.

But don't get dissapointed yet, that's not the end of it. To overcome this, I tried to make the lube lighter by mixing it with a lighter lube and check if that works. I did a few mixes with two other lubes: the OKS 477 and the NyoGel 760G. They both are compatible with the 767A, as they have the same Base Oil (APO) and all have Silica as thickener, therefore mixing them together would be problem-free.

I did try a few of the mixes and I ended up with a winner! A 50-50 mix of the NyoGel 767A and OKS 477, applying a very low amount (I will post the details later on) on specific spots of the stem, does the trick. Tthe switch gets very light, without losing or affecting its smoothness or the "velvet" feel. And as a bonus, the sound also gets restored up to the OG levels.

I am very pleased with this, and this is just only the first try. I'm very confident now, that we are going to find a mix that will approach the OG so close that it would be almost indistinguishable. Or, who knows, maybe even better!

(hopefully I'll have a video ready by tomorrow for a side-by-side comparison)

Well, I'll be. If nothing else 767a does sound promising from your results. This is gonna be a weird mix to procure I reckon.

The Nyogel is on eBay and turns out I can get the OKS locally (since the manufacturer is German?).
And they are a bit pricey, but hey. If I can make my white alps board not terrible - that'd be neat.

Yes OKS is german. You can find nyogel on the micro-tools.de store which is again a german shop (wth is with germany these days, everything eurpean is german lol) at a good price.

Two things though. Nyogel offers the series 774 which is the lighter version of the 767A (it is astoundingly thick!!). It offers a very light (774VL), a light (774L), a normal (774), a thick (774H) and a very thick (774VH) version. But don't get fooled by the designations, even the 774VH one is much lighter than the behemoth 767A! So it is very probable that one of the 774 series will be just as thick for BLUE alps, so there would not be a need toning down the 767A with mixes. But this of course requires someone to test those, and they are more expensive than 767a!

Anyway. I am going to upload some videos that I took.

I could only find 1 kg containers of OKS477 :-/

I got it from this ebay seller for 17euro + shipping (europe)

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/OKS477-Hahnfett ... 2749.l2649

Here is a before-after quick video:
They keyboard is a Focus FK-2002 with blue SKCM switches, which I rate the switches condition at range of 8/10 to 9/10.

The L key is cleaned thoroughly, and had no lube on it (for some of my previous video demos). I consider this condition as a 5/10. On the first part of the video I do various presses on the center and especially on its corners. Notice how harsh and binding the corner presses were and how unpleasant it sounds, you can hear the plastics of the stem and the housing sliders being rubbed together as it slides. On the second part of the video, I have applied the new lube mix on it and do the same presses again, notice how changed it is and how smooth it slides. Also, at the very the end, I compare it with the O key, which is I rate it as a 8-9/10 completely untouched and has the original factory lube on it. From this comparison you can see that they are practically exactly the same. Keep in mind that this is still a work in progress.

enjoy

And here is a careful and direct comparison, between a 10/10 (almost) NOS Blue SKCM switch and a restored Blue SKCM one, that was originally a 6 to 7/10 which has been cleaned thoroughly and has been applied the 50-50 mix of 767A and OKS 477 (NeKtar lube ).
it is practically restored to a 9+/10 condition! Although, in my opinion it is in fact a true 10/10 or even better than that (!), because it is even more smooth than the NOS! And also is as light and as pleasant too.

I tried my best to display how smooth are the corner presses, of both switches. Notice the noise they make as they slide, this at least gives you an idea of the harshness/smoothness that you feel. The click-clack sound though is not really comparable between them because they are different boards and that plays the most important role in that. So don't try to draw conclusions about the sound from this video. I wish I could somehow capture the feeling too, but this is as close as I can get with my current tools and my video skills. (Also sorry about the washed out colors. I know it sucks )
The first keyboard is a Chicony 5162A in a NOS condition, that has the smoothest keys that I have ever used on a keyboard. I consider this one as the reference 10/10 condition. The second keyboard, is a Tulip branded, Monterey K102 (wonderful board IMO) with blue SKCM switches, that were in a mediocre to bad condition (very heavy corner presses, harshness, they were binding and had stick-slip sliding, in general pretty awful feeling) when I got it, I would rate them as 5/10 to 6-7/10 for some of them (the home key displayed in the video was a 6-7/10).