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photekq
Cherry Picker

18 Nov 2015, 23:47

stratokaster wrote:
photekq wrote: How about we take a page out of Putin's book? He did a good job kickstarting the birth rate in Russia without mass immigration.
Actually, the total fertility rate in Russia at its highest was still significantly lower than in the UK, and the trend already has reversed (the birth rate has started to fall again thanks to Russian reckless economic and foreign policies). Also while demographic situation in Russia has improved in recent years, the country attracted about 4 million immigrants over last 18 years, mainly from the Central Asian countries. Those communities are very visible in large Russian cities and often provoke displeasure of the locals (who are predominantly Slavic). Everyday xenophobia is very widespread in Russia even among the educated, with racial slurs widely used in everyday conversations. Violent attacks on non-Whites are also not rare, with many high-profile cases not properly investigated because Russian police is also predominantly xenophobic.
Oh no, I didn't mean that Putin made the Russian birthrate go beyond ours. He just managed to increase it by encouraging the population to, well, have kids.. This isn't something we even attempt here! Immigrants are obviously the best way to increase the birthrate so there's no point trying anything else!

Yes, Russia is multicultural in many city areas, although Putin takes a far different attitude to it than us : "Russia does not need minorities, minorities need Russia!".
Muirium wrote: DanielT mentioned this back on the first page.
Hold on a second. DanielT's posts are very open to interpretation. When he says that Munich has changed immeasurably in the past 7 years he could mean 1 of 3 things :
  • It's changed due to the abundance of those who lean towards the far right.
  • It's changed due to the abundance of people whose origin is not Germany.
  • Something completely different.
I don't think it's wise to assume which of those three he meant. Perhaps it would be worth waiting for him to clarify.

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

18 Nov 2015, 23:52

I don't think that Munich has changed immeasurably in the past 7 years. It's gotten more and more expensive to live there, yes. There may be certain groups who lean towards the far right, but not in "abundance" IMO.

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Muirium
µ

19 Nov 2015, 02:40

Yeah, I was unclear. I've heard bad things about the social atmosphere in Munich in particular lately from other people too. Not an outright shifting towards political nastiness — like is gripping Hungary and Poland — but the kind of thing you'd pick up as a foreigner, in a mixed race couple, that's lived there many years. I don't expect far right parties to surge in Germany as they are elsewhere. But I do expect a rightwards shift in the mainstream parties. Germany is still a very hostile place for parties as socially right wing was Ukip and the Front National, but the Overton Window is still shifting. What was once unthinkable racial rudeness is increasingly mainstream. Apparently, this has really picked up since 2008 and the sense that Germans are propping up all of Europe, and shouldering the responsibility for so much non-white migration now too.

Democracy: easily manipulated by terrorist stunts. Aren't we so smart!

Meanwhile, in England, Labour MPs are shitting bricks while their hated new leader is steering them into the same storm. Corbyn's a man of another age. An age when Tories won for a generation. This isn't the 1980s, though. Labour's many socially conservative voters have a place to go, along with like minded Tories. Ukip's well on the rise for all of this. Oh brother…

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sth
2 girls 1 cuprubber

20 Nov 2015, 11:08

apologies if this was posted but for people claiming that islam is 'X':

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webwit
Wild Duck

20 Nov 2015, 11:39

How can I take that guy serious if he picks a far side on a black-white spectrum and smugly defends it like that is the truth and the whole truth? It's not that simple. He's in propaganda as well. He seems to be enjoying making money out of this conflict.

andrewjoy

20 Nov 2015, 11:42

I agree with Bill Maher. The guy the have on CNN is incorrect, so basically female genital mutilation is not a muslim problem as christians do it too ? Bollocks, its a problem whoever does it.

And it is 100% true that under muslim law you will be executed if you leave the faith, that is not an extreme view thats the sharia law.

The subjugation of women is also part of sharia law, to say its not is a lie.

And i will bring out the statistic again, 2/3 British muslims think that the danish cartoonists who drew a picture should have been put in prision. Thats insane , that kind of thinking has no place in 2015.

He tries to say its the country not the religion and i am sorry but the countries who do it are influenced by a religion, be it christian judaism or islam.

He also said we are painting people with the same brush, its not about the people at all , its about the ideology.

The Israel president is no better he troops have killed innocent people in the west bank.

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webwit
Wild Duck

20 Nov 2015, 11:50

The guy's rant was full of logical fallacies. For example "Religion isn't violent, people are". Yeah if religion is a magic, peaceful thing by a wonderful god. As an atheist I believe however that religion is a human construct. So he's saying "What people may write down isn't violent by definition, but people who read it can be". I don't even.

He would have fared much better by reminding us Christianity used to be a lot more violent against non-believers. The crusades, etc., and then focus on idiotic backward cultures. Oh wait another no-go area.

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Muirium
µ

20 Nov 2015, 11:51

Feelings.

But what do you suggest we *do* about it?

I think we should have nothing whatsoever to do with the Middle East. We're a spent and hated power. Israel ignores us. Let their apocalyptic Christian friends in America bear the cost of their mess. We should home the refugees, with compassion and respect. Let the big boys burn their bollocks in war, as they insist, pretending they're fighting WWII yet again, when really all it can be is another insurgency like Iraq. That worked out well…

The way to win is to remain modern, pluralistic, and compassionate. We don't do that by copying Isis and conducting our own internal Jihad. The 20th century is the ultimate example of how ruthless and effective we are when we do try that ourselves.

andrewjoy

20 Nov 2015, 11:56

What we should do , its give everyone a good education , not a christian or jewish or muslim education but a good education, in science mathematics and so on. Still teach about religion but teach it objectively , not as the focus of your whole life.


Also in the UK change policy so you can only officially join a religion as an adult, why you are just fine to decide to join a religion as a child but not vote is insane in my view. The minds of children are very plastic, as in you could get them to believe anything. And that will stick with them, in my view that borders on phycological abuse.
Last edited by andrewjoy on 20 Nov 2015, 12:00, edited 1 time in total.

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sth
2 girls 1 cuprubber

20 Nov 2015, 11:57

webwit wrote: The guy's rant was full of logical fallacies. For example "Religion isn't violent, people are". Yeah if religion is a magic, peaceful thing by a wonderful god. As an atheist I believe however that religion is a human construct. So he's saying "What people may write down isn't violent by definition, but people who read it can be". I don't even.

He would have fared much better by reminding us Christianity used to be a lot more violent against non-believers. The crusades, etc., and then focus on idiotic backward cultures. Oh wait another no-go area.
religion isn't violent OR peaceful. religion is religion. people do with it what they will. people do what they will, and they use religion as a defense. this occurs for every religiously-'motivated' act or action, even when you compare two that are diametrically opposed. this is neither fallacious nor unclear.

what are you saying? i know it's too early to be hitting the jenever or i'd be right there with you.

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webwit
Wild Duck

20 Nov 2015, 12:03

Yeah that's it, I'm drunk so you can dismiss my critique on the thesis.

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Muirium
µ

20 Nov 2015, 12:03

Aye, we're on the same page, Sth.


@Andy: Religion lives in the home. There's no stopping believers from teaching their children their faith. So ethnic children should be abducted en masse by the state? That doesn't sound good…

I'm asking what we should actually do. Not for ponies and unicorns. If you want that argument: Magic Wand = end to all hate. Done. QED muthafucka!

Be realistic. History is on our side. Religion used to be so much more powerful. And then xenophobic ethnic nationalism. By the turn of the millennium, we had them almost beat. Everything since then has been our mistake. Even Bosnia and Northern Ireland are unraveling while our focus is elsewhere. Unforced errors. Fighting ghouls, instead of the challenges that actually exist.

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webwit
Wild Duck

20 Nov 2015, 12:04

I dismiss that by suggesting you're drunk too.

andrewjoy

20 Nov 2015, 12:05

Muirium wrote: Aye, we're on the same page, Sth.


@Andy: So ethnic children should be abducted en masse by the state? That doesn't sound good…

Thats not what i am saying at all , don't be silly.

Just stop them joining the faith , you know like baptisms and so on, just like you cannot get married when you 4.

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Muirium
µ

20 Nov 2015, 12:07

Tell me how.

Marriage is a legally recognised state. Belief is belief, and needs no recognition.

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webwit
Wild Duck

20 Nov 2015, 12:09

A religion can be idiotic, dangerous and violent. In fact most of them are. I find the idea that they are exempt of that to be hilarious. The idea here is that if someone starts to believe in a religion, and then does something bad based on his belief, he's believing it wrongly, and it's the man and not the perfectly innocent religion constructed by men as a means of control and power over people. How convenient, now we don't need to say anything bad about such religions. Otherwise some people might be insulted and get their feelings hurt.

andrewjoy

20 Nov 2015, 12:16

Muirium wrote: Tell me how.

Marriage is a legally recognised state. Belief is belief, and needs no recognition.
Legislation.

Its the indoctrination of children that i don't like, if you are just teaching them about the faith and so on i dont have a huge problem with that. But look at what is possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI82BnQz6uI

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Muirium
µ

20 Nov 2015, 12:16

And so what do you reckon we should *do* about it, Chairman Duck?

Imperfect world. Imperfect people. So much potential for things to go wrong.

If it were simple, we would solve it. Like smallpox.

andrewjoy

20 Nov 2015, 12:20

The solution is simple, have more people leaving the faith than new ones joining and poof a few generations and your done. Simple mathematics.

The problem is how do we do that.

You cannot force people, but you can give them the best chance at not being forced in as a child , and giving them a good education so they can see religion for what it is , a means for powerful members of that faith to control people.

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Muirium
µ

20 Nov 2015, 12:22

Christ, this thread is too fast for my shitty little iPhone. I'm posts behind!


@Andy: Legislation is nothing without enforcement. And enforcement means seizing children from their devout religious families.

You really think passing an act says "no God please, we're British" does anything? That's magical thinking if I ever heard it. Your science class wouldn't allow it!

andrewjoy

20 Nov 2015, 12:24

No, i am not saying that we can police what they think. But we can prevent people who dont know what they are getting into from joining an organsed religion.

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webwit
Wild Duck

20 Nov 2015, 12:25

Muirium wrote: my shitty little iPhone
Blasphemy! Saved for later reference.

P.S. We should get the fuck out. We got into their countries, governments and culture. We won't get the fuck out, so I see no solution. They will fight forever, this has never worked throughout history. Oh wait...

andrewjoy

20 Nov 2015, 12:27

Get more bang for your buck

It has a nice screen, nice and fast and it a very good price.

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Muirium
µ

20 Nov 2015, 12:28

We already have secular schools.

Banning religious schools could be a good idea. I don't know if you have them in England. But here in Scotland there are state funded exclusively Catholic schools for ancient reasons. They aren't extreme. But they are exclusionary, and I don't like it. I believe there could be some Muslim ones now. But this stuff is dry poorly reported by the London media so I honestly don't k ow. The Muslim people I know personally all went through the same secular schooling I did.

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Muirium
µ

20 Nov 2015, 12:33

Shitty little iPhone 4s. I'm getting an iPhone 6s Plus when I'm in America in a few weeks. Fastest single threaded performance of any phone, for the second year running. But let's not fight two holy wars in this thread!

andrewjoy

20 Nov 2015, 12:35

We do have them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_He ... ic_College
http://www.greatcrosbycatholicprimary.org.uk/

I went to both of them.

At least in the secondary , although we had weekly mass/assembly R.E was taught objectivly , as it should be.

I agree that we should get rid of religious schools , but we should still teach about the bible and so on as a works of fiction that have impacted culture.

EDIT RE: Phone

6s is a good phone, i used to religiously ( he he) use apple phones but i just got fed up with not being able to do things how i like to do them and not how apple wants me to.

I switched to the Nexus line and i did not look back until i got my OnePlus One and its super long battery life, i see no reason to upgrade, i do like apple phones , i just don't agree with making it 0.01mm thinner all the time, when you could just make battery life better.

If i had a car that had the app integration from iPhone i would switch back. As it stands by bluetooth does not even work in my car at the moment, i suspect capacitor plague, will rip out the bluetooth unit and get busy with the soldering iorn at some point.

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webwit
Wild Duck

20 Nov 2015, 12:45

Most of our schools are public and secular, but there are also many religious schools as it is seen as a right. Historically Christian, but now, because of these rights, also many Islamic schools. For instance the article below writes about how the council of the state orders Amsterdam to provide a building for another Islamic school for 1000 students. Check out the picture. These children are educated in a bubble.
http://www.parool.nl/parool/nl/4/AMSTER ... chap.dhtml

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sth
2 girls 1 cuprubber

20 Nov 2015, 12:46

Image

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Muirium
µ

20 Nov 2015, 12:48

My Mum went to generic state school in England, and back in those days they didn't try to be secular. She rants and raves against religion as a result. Couldn't stand her Church of England indoctrination. Teen of the sixties: fight The Man, man!

Somehow left her Islamophobic too. She never grew up with Muslims around her, let alone her friends. I did. And feel no need to get aggressive on their culture. European Muslims are minorities, by definition. Their faith is really a keystone of their cultural identity. It's not going away. But it's not nearly as dangerous as the ring wing racist shitheads who want them gone would have you believe. Or we'd all be dead by now.

Isis isn't mainstream. We are the ones buying their bullshit.

andrewjoy

20 Nov 2015, 12:50

The best way to combat violent extremists and religion in general is to have people of different cultures mix and learn and work together.

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