deskthority

Awesome idea XMIT ... maybe we can bring a vendor in here to get things moving!

Phase 2 should have black and white keycaps

infodroid wrote:

caligo wrote: If the alternative was that people would start cancelling their orders since they got something else than what they paid for, remaking the keys seems fairly reasonable.

People cancelling their orders is not a risk or a problem because SP kits have value and can be sold to other buyers easily.

If you paid for a kit that's presented as a more or less faithful replica of the original Space Cadet, and then found out that the legends had been made too small due to the mistakes of one or several of the parties involved – would you really have been OK with still paying the full price in the hopes of being able to sell it? I highly doubt all buyers would come to that conclusion (although some might).

Look man, I'm agreeing with you – it was not a good solution. I just don't see how any other solution would necessarily have been better.

infodroid wrote:

caligo wrote: And what then of the people who paid more than 180 days ago, and cannot get their money back from PayPal? And what about the money 7bit actually has received? Should he send that back to the (unreliable) PayPal collector and just hope they refund whoever sent it in the first place? I don't think there's a solution to this that does not involve the former collectors cooperating to sort things out, unfortunately.

The goal of this proposal is to raise sufficient funds to produce Phase 2. If sufficient funds can be raised just by cancelling 180 days orders and writing off the remaining amount to the unresponsive collectors, then it is a viable option that should be considered. If it works, then everybody will still receive exactly what they ordered or all their money back.

But there's no way of knowing who falls into that group – 7bit would presumably have to cancel all orders for which he has not been given updates from the collectors, despite having recieved some of the money. Those people would then need to dispute their PayPal payments. Some of them might get their money back, and some won't. The fallout will be that there are people who have paid money they can't get it back, but get their orders cancelled anyway. And 7bit ending up with a pile of money without anyone's name on it. I don't see how that solves anything.

Hi,
I got a portion of my order (SPH/CREAM/BLUE) and all BLACK, RED, GREY, WHITE were not shipped - screenshot attached.

I am all lost with those phases and rounds. When the remaining caps will be shipped? Order 0850 from March'16.

7bit wrote: These are packed:
0057
0090
0104
0113
0132
0146
0180
0183
0285
0292
0307
0339
0399
0406
0416
0418
0421
0431
0439
0459
0460
0462
0463
0465
0474
0476
0480
0485
0531
0536
0540
0542
0544
0547
0555
0567
0572
0581
0585
0586
0592
0598
0599
0602
0603
0604
0609
0613
0621
0626
0628
0634
0642
0656
0658
0683
0684
0696
0697
0705
0715
0731
0734
0740
0745
0755
0760
0765
0766
0772
0789
0792
0798
0800
0810
0822
0828
0831
0837
0850
0854
0858
0872
0873
0884
0886
0890
0891
0892
0894
0908
0910
0913
0918
0936
0941
0951
0974
0985
1018
1061

Everything else you're waiting for is Phase 2.

Brill - so I can forget about those based on the previous comments about financing?

eddible wrote: Everything else you're waiting for is Phase 2.

rfja wrote: Brill - so I can forget about those based on the previous comments about financing?

eddible wrote: Everything else you're waiting for is Phase 2.

Who knows! It's safe to say you won't be seeing them for quite some time though, sadly.

XMIT wrote: How many black TKL sets away from Round 6.2 are we?

Perhaps XMIT Keyboards can stock a few sets.

I don't know if there's any way of actually answering that question. More base kits would mean more novelties and extras selling, which would contribute to getting rid of all those leftovers. But I suspect it's hard to say how much leftovers would be sold that way. And the extra TKL kits themselves only finance their own production.

The extra TKL sets could of course be sold at a higher price point, to cover for money lost elsewhere. Say that optimistic estimate where we have 4,000 USD to go holds up – that would mean selling something like 160 TKL sets, if they come with a premium of 25 USD. If such a solution results in a price that's still competitive, it might be a way forward. But I have no idea how feasible such a scheme is.

caligo wrote:

infodroid wrote:

caligo wrote: And what then of the people who paid more than 180 days ago, and cannot get their money back from PayPal? And what about the money 7bit actually has received? Should he send that back to the (unreliable) PayPal collector and just hope they refund whoever sent it in the first place? I don't think there's a solution to this that does not involve the former collectors cooperating to sort things out, unfortunately.

The goal of this proposal is to raise sufficient funds to produce Phase 2. If sufficient funds can be raised just by cancelling 180 days orders and writing off the remaining amount to the unresponsive collectors, then it is a viable option that should be considered. If it works, then everybody will still receive exactly what they ordered or all their money back.

But there's no way of knowing who falls into that group – 7bit would presumably have to cancel all orders for which he has not been given updates from the collectors, despite having recieved some of the money. Those people would then need to dispute their PayPal payments. Some of them might get their money back, and some won't. The fallout will be that there are people who have paid money they can't get it back, but get their orders cancelled anyway. And 7bit ending up with a pile of money without anyone's name on it. I don't see how that solves anything.

Have you really understood the proposal?

With respect to payments to unresponsive or unavailable collectors, there are four major cases:

(1) people who have not paid for any items
(2) people who have fully paid less than 180 days ago, but the collector has not updated 7bot
(3) people who have fully paid and the collector has updated 7bot
(4) people who have paid for some items, but have either not paid for the remaining items or the collector has not updated 7bot

Note that, unless the collectors become responsive again, 7bit cannot tell the difference between (1) or (2) or (4). This is not a valid objection because this proposal does not rely on 7bit being able to distinguish between them.

If the proposal goes ahead, all items marked unpaid that were ordered with unresponsive collectors are cancelled. The items now go on the market and are available for other people to purchase, which will raise much-needed funds.

This proposal only makes sense if the funds raised by selling the kits is enough to resume production of Phase 2. In order to make this decision, we would need to know how much is required to resume production of Phase 2 and what is the dollar total of unpaid items with the unresponsive collectors that were placed within the PayPal dispute window. Right now, nobody except 7bit knows this information and whether such a plan is economically feasible.

This is how the cancellation affects each group:

(1) No loss to anybody in this group.

(2) This group will obtain their funds back through PayPal dispute. No loss to anybody in this group.

(3) This group will receive all the items they have ordered. No loss to anybody in this group.

(4) This is a mixture of groups (1) or (2) depending on if the person has paid, and group (3). No loss to anybody in this group.

caligo wrote: Those people would then need to dispute their PayPal payments. Some of them might get their money back, and some won't.

There is no such risk. If you know of anybody that has failed to recover their funds within the dispute window, I would like to know about it and find out what they did wrong.

PayPal has always sided with the buyer. You will get your money back if you open a claim within the dispute window.

If you are currently in this situation then you have nothing to lose by opening a dispute/claim immediately. Either you get your money from PayPal after 30 days, or if the collector responds to the claim, the collector will return it directly.

Hey 7bit, I placed an order with 7bot for some left overs but only part of it was included in the invoice, #1083 for reference.. is there no more numpad set leftovers?

kiwi99 wrote: Hey 7bit, I placed an order with 7bot for some left overs but only part of it was included in the invoice, #1083 for reference.. is there no more numpad set leftovers?

This happens to me too...

I also want to know if I order Round 5/6 leftover items with some payment of Round 7, will those Round 5/6 items be shipped with the Round 7 stuff?

caligo wrote: But there's no way of knowing who falls into that group – 7bit would presumably have to cancel all orders for which he has not been given updates from the collectors, despite having recieved some of the money. Those people would then need to dispute their PayPal payments. Some of them might get their money back, and some won't. The fallout will be that there are people who have paid money they can't get it back, but get their orders cancelled anyway. And 7bit ending up with a pile of money without anyone's name on it. I don't see how that solves anything.

How long have these collectors been MIA? It sounds like it's been months. If there's been no contact, not even a "hey, sorry I've been MIA, <terrible thing> happened, I'll send an update in <time period>" for 3 months then I wouldn't hold my breath.

It would be nice to know the dollar amount of unpaid orders and the dollar amount of disputed orders where disputed orders is defined as: orders where the buyer claims that they paid but there is no confirmation that they paid (i.e. the bot doesn't say that they paid).

If someone paid and the bot has consistently and clearly said that they didn't pay I would expect them to say something about it. If so, we can conclude that anyone who is marked as unpaid and who hasn't said anything really hasn't paid and forfeits their order (after some reasonable time of non-payment).

It would also be interesting to see the amount of money received for unspecified orders vs. the amount of money in disputed orders (as defined above). If the amounts are roughly equal, then we have our answer. If the money received is less than the disputes, release all but the disputed orders. If the money received is significantly more than the disputes, I'd worry that there may be a bunch of people who paid but don't realize that they aren't marked as paid.

I think I ordered and paid for my caps through mashby back in April and the bot says that I'm all paid up, so I suspect that the window where things went south is pretty small relative to the time that R6 has been open.

Menuhin wrote: I also want to know if I order Round 5/6 leftover items with some payment of Round 7, will those Round 5/6 items be shipped with the Round 7 stuff?

In response to a question about whether Round 6 kits will ship with Round 7, 7bit said that they will ship separately. Or at least that's what I interpret.

I payed for 884grams and got a personal response from sl89 in the end of September.

Looks like I live in a cave, just learnt for Berlin, hope you Berliners are doing fine and that your family and friends are too!
Herzlich!

infodroid wrote: /…/
With respect to payments to unresponsive or unavailable collectors, there are four major cases:

(1) people who have not paid for any items
(2) people who have fully paid less than 180 days ago, but the collector has not updated 7bot
(3) people who have fully paid and the collector has updated 7bot
(4) people who have paid for some items, but have either not paid for the remaining items or the collector has not updated 7bot

You also have (5) people who have paid more than 180 days ago, but have not had that information passed on to 7bit/7bot. E.g. people like eddible a few post back:

eddible wrote: Filing PayPal disputes isn't an option. I paid my money to Mashby ages ago, I tried to file a dispute recently due to all this uncertainty and PayPal rejected my claim as it was over 180 days.

Neither I nor you know how many people fall into the respective categories – what you're listing are plausible scenarios, but everything beyond that is just guesswork on our part. If there are one or two people in category (5) it might not be that big a deal. But what if there are more?

The kits ordered are kits that will result in money being poured into the GB, as long as that money is actually collected. Cancelling orders in the hopes of selling the same kit again might not be that good an idea. If it's an ANSI TKL kit or something it might sell just fine, but say it's something like keys for a custom MX board with HHKB layout? That thing might not be easy to resell, and then we'll have even more unsold keys to deal with.

xtr0n wrote: How long have these collectors been MIA? It sounds like it's been months. If there's been no contact, not even a "hey, sorry I've been MIA, <terrible thing> happened, I'll send an update in <time period>" for 3 months then I wouldn't hold my breath.

Well, they've both been online fairly recently according to their DT profiles. I honestly don't know what the story is with that, but they're not MIA in the full sense of the word. Which is somewhat reassuring, at least. I don't think it's that naïve to hope for a resolution if the whole PayPal thing – which is another reason to not start cancelling orders.

xtr0n wrote: It would be nice to know the dollar amount of unpaid orders and the dollar amount of disputed orders where disputed orders is defined as: orders where the buyer claims that they paid but there is no confirmation that they paid (i.e. the bot doesn't say that they paid).

If someone paid and the bot has consistently and clearly said that they didn't pay I would expect them to say something about it. If so, we can conclude that anyone who is marked as unpaid and who hasn't said anything really hasn't paid and forfeits their order (after some reasonable time of non-payment).

It would also be interesting to see the amount of money received for unspecified orders vs. the amount of money in disputed orders (as defined above). If the amounts are roughly equal, then we have our answer. If the money received is less than the disputes, release all but the disputed orders. If the money received is significantly more than the disputes, I'd worry that there may be a bunch of people who paid but don't realize that they aren't marked as paid.

I think I ordered and paid for my caps through mashby back in April and the bot says that I'm all paid up, so I suspect that the window where things went south is pretty small relative to the time that R6 has been open.

I agree: we would need to have those numbers in order to say anything substantial about how one could go about solving this problem. But I don't think people can be expected to follow this thread closely or pay that much attention to the invoices. The discussion here has a quite low signal-to-noise-ratio, and 7bot keeps sending invoices whether you've paid or not – I can totally see someone placing their order, sending money through PayPal, and then just missing the whole circus that's been going on here on DT.

mecano wrote: Looks like I live in a cave, just learnt for Berlin, hope you Berliners are doing fine and that your family and friends are too!
Herzlich!

Yeah, I think it's probably reasonable to expect things to be somewhat slower on 7bits end for a while.

Hope you and your fellow Berlin residents are doing OK or at least coping, 7bit. In the big scheme of things, keycaps are not that important. At least not as important as people.

…or faster if he doesn't want me to send him a mourning desperate pre teen for the vacations, wandering along, mumbling continouesly about where the caps he was supposed to get for christmas are, while mixing caps bags in search for his set with his fingers pulp full of cherry stem prints

caligo wrote:

infodroid wrote: /…/
With respect to payments to unresponsive or unavailable collectors, there are four major cases:

(1) people who have not paid for any items
(2) people who have fully paid less than 180 days ago, but the collector has not updated 7bot
(3) people who have fully paid and the collector has updated 7bot
(4) people who have paid for some items, but have either not paid for the remaining items or the collector has not updated 7bot

You also have (5) people who have paid more than 180 days ago, but have not had that information passed on to 7bit/7bot. E.g. people like eddible a few post back:

eddible wrote: Filing PayPal disputes isn't an option. I paid my money to Mashby ages ago, I tried to file a dispute recently due to all this uncertainty and PayPal rejected my claim as it was over 180 days.

Neither I nor you know how many people fall into the respective categories – what you're listing are plausible scenarios, but everything beyond that is just guesswork on our part. If there are one or two people in category (5) it might not be that big a deal. But what if there are more?

Now you are just trolling. No person is stupid enough to ignore six months of reminder emails saying they have not paid, when they have actually paid money to a collector. eddible is not such a person, his payments was recorded just after a delay, but he just wanted a refund due to the uncertainty. This shows you are mainly interested in clogging up this discussion thread with drivel instead of actually being helpful.

My opinion is that all unpaid orders should be cancelled so the kits are freed up and can be actually payed for.

infodroid wrote:

caligo wrote:

infodroid wrote: /…/
With respect to payments to unresponsive or unavailable collectors, there are four major cases:

(1) people who have not paid for any items
(2) people who have fully paid less than 180 days ago, but the collector has not updated 7bot
(3) people who have fully paid and the collector has updated 7bot
(4) people who have paid for some items, but have either not paid for the remaining items or the collector has not updated 7bot

You also have (5) people who have paid more than 180 days ago, but have not had that information passed on to 7bit/7bot. E.g. people like eddible a few post back:

eddible wrote: Filing PayPal disputes isn't an option. I paid my money to Mashby ages ago, I tried to file a dispute recently due to all this uncertainty and PayPal rejected my claim as it was over 180 days.

Neither I nor you know how many people fall into the respective categories – what you're listing are plausible scenarios, but everything beyond that is just guesswork on our part. If there are one or two people in category (5) it might not be that big a deal. But what if there are more?

Now you are just trolling. No person is stupid enough to ignore six months of reminder emails saying they have not paid, when they have actually paid money to a collector. eddible is not such a person, his payments was recorded just after a delay, but he just wanted a refund due to the uncertainty. This shows you are mainly interested in clogging up this discussion thread with drivel instead of actually being helpful.

Yes, that's probably a reasonable assumption – I ordered all those keycaps just to get an excuse to derail a forum thread for my own personal amusement. "Drivel", is that where we're at? Seriously? Sod off mate, I'm not in the mood for this.

Sorry for pointing out potential flaws in your master plan consisting of cancelling a bunch of orders. I'd really love to have a civil discussion here, but that's not where we're at it seems. I'll just leave this be for now, because this is not very constructive.

These orders shipped:
0057
0090
0104
0113
0132
0146
0180
0183
0250
0285
0292
0307
0339
0406
0416
0418
0421
0431
0439
0459
0460
0462
0463
0474
0476
0480
0485
0531
0536
0540
0542
0544
0547
0555
0567
0572
0585
0586
0592
0598
0599
0602
0603
0604
0609
0613
0621
0626
0628
0634
0642
0656
0658
0677
0683
0684
0696
0697
0705
0715
0731
0734
0740
0742
0745
0755
0760
0765
0772
0789
0792
0798
0800
0810
0822
0828
0831
0837
0850
0854
0858
0869
0872
0884
0890
0891
0892
0894
0908
0910
0913
0918
0936
0941
0951
0954
0960
0974
0985
1018
1022


I will pack more during the next few days ...

Hum looks like 0873 is going on the next shipment

Nicely done 7bit, keep up the good work!

As I'm looking down on my caps I'm really speechless. This is such amazing job done by 7bit. Thanks!

Thanks 7bit

My tipro is so happy. Thanks for making the space cadet dream come true!

dorf wrote: As I'm looking down on my caps I'm really speechless. This is such amazing job done by 7bit. Thanks!

I'll only congratulate him when the job is actually done

/round 2 salt continues

Yes, you all take your phase 1 happiness and get out of here!

So by my calculations 7bit is packing 5 orders a day, 100 every 20 days. The first orders must be considerably larger than the last ones but, assuming this rate would continue, my order will be shipped in 127 days, hah.

Parjánya wrote:So by my calculations 7bit is packing 5 orders a day, 100 every 20 days. The first orders must be considerably larger than the last ones but, assuming this rate would continue, my order will be shipped in 127 days, hah.

Wait, are you implying that that there's a long wait to get keycaps here?

As you say, the larger orders take more time. And I guess finding keycaps also becomes easier as the amount decreases. I don't remember exactly how long R5 took to pack, but I'm fairly certain it was less than four months.