Ergodox massdrop groupbuy discussion

damorgue · 06 Dec 2012, 10:53

If a reputable user from these forums did it, they would try to resolve issues that may arise, and be more flexible generally. If it gets very problematic, they will go the extra mile to resolve it. A company which starts to see their revenue drop and notice that we require more and more time and effort will probably drop us. They may fulfill minimum requirements as to consider the project to be completed etc. They have not done anything like this before, so we are even less covered because of that. There are numerous reasons why not to use them.

If no one will volunteer to do this by themselves, perhaps people can help each other and distribute it over a couple of people. If no other possibility to make this happens exist, then sure, I can agree that they may be the option to take, but I consider them to be a last resort.

damorgue · 06 Dec 2012, 10:56

webwit wrote:
I'm attacking your worries, which are baseless and a bit silly in my opinion.
Oh fuck off. I'm done with you and your masscrap.

We get your point and opinion, but can we please keep the criticism useful before this discussion gets out of hand.

AloisiusFauxly · 06 Dec 2012, 11:00

damorgue wrote:If a reputable user from these forums did it, they would try to resolve issues that may arise, and be more flexible generally. If it gets very problematic, they will go the extra mile to resolve it. A company which starts to see their revenue drop and notice that we require more and more time and effort will probably drop us. They may fulfill minimum requirements as to consider the project to be completed etc. They have not done anything like this before, so we are even less covered because of that. There are numerous reasons why not to use them.

If no one will volunteer to do this by themselves, perhaps people can help each other and distribute it over a couple of people. If no other possibility to make this happens exist, then sure, I can agree that they may be the option to take, but I consider them to be a last resort.

Yup, valid points! I can easily see forum member(s) being more suitable for these reasons.

webwit wrote:Oh fuck off. I'm done with you and your masscrap.

Aww, muffin.

dirge · 06 Dec 2012, 11:01

AloisiusFauxly wrote: or even barfy Kate Middleton

Don't insult the Royal broodmare, all hail the hive queen!

...aaannyway. I'll see how my case hangs together, it didn't arrive yesterday, maybe due to the 4 inches of road fucker that fell.

But we can argue the toss over massdrop and it's terms of service, what does seem apparent is it's causing a divide in the camp, which isn't a good thing. So that I think rules it out.

I'm happy to help with a groupbuy if I can, but don't want to handle the money side.

AloisiusFauxly · 06 Dec 2012, 11:10

dirge wrote:I'm happy to help with a groupbuy if I can, but don't want to handle the money side.

I can see the money collection being a bit of an issue. I don't know how comfy I'd be letting $250-400 sit in someone's trust while the parts get collected for shipment, but maybe I'm not trusting enough. On the flip side, I wouldn't want everyone's money hitting my account for any potential tax repercussions.

dirge wrote:Don't insult the Royal broodmare, all hail the hive queen!

That was speaking to her current vomitous state, not her looks or anything. She's a fine-looking gal.

7bit · 06 Dec 2012, 11:12

webwit, I share your opinion but must report you to the moderator because you use offensive language!

7bit · 06 Dec 2012, 11:16

All I can offer is:
- setting up the ordering system as done with the Phantom etc.
- I can also sort and ship stuff as long as I don't have to deal with customs.
- collecting money for EU orders.

Things which must be done by others:
- collectiong money for restworld orders.
- getting PCB, mountplates, controllers, stabilisers, cables, cases.

Can't be so difficult.

dirge · 06 Dec 2012, 11:25

AloisiusFauxly wrote:I don't know how comfy I'd be letting $250-400 sit in someone's trust while the parts get collected for shipment, but maybe I'm not trusting enough.

I think that may be something to do with this then. We do trust each other a lot on this site and it's a good thing. I've had money like that put into phantom project, went fine. Was there a chance it could have went wrong and I lost that money? Sure! But it didn't.

If the money you need to put in, is too much for your to risk walking away from if it goes wrong, then don't put it in. I think maybe splitting this into smaller managable chunks may be the way forward.

End of the day for PCB, parts, DIY case, everything except switches and caps your looking at around £100. I don't know what kind of volume discount will bring that down too but it's not a massive sum of money. A set of dyesub Russian caps can cost more than that!

Jim66 · 06 Dec 2012, 13:15

Jesus, I haven't visited this thread in a while. Shit has gotten pretty heated.

I'd personally feel much more comfortable handing my money over to a trusted member of DT (I like the idea of splitting the GH and DT group buy up) than a massdrop. It's a massive stressful/thankless commitment for someone (or a number of individuals if it's split up).

ic07 · 06 Dec 2012, 20:00

I was pretty much planning to live without a case (and roll my own with a friend - which I'll probably do anyway, just for fun) but now that I see it, if it doesn't add much to the dimensions, I'll be very tempted to get one..

. Thanks litster and dirge

Also, 7bit: there's a good chance I dunno what I'm asking, but.. If we do end up with a community organized buy, and someone in the US fails to step up (worst case, I suppose, but still): is there any subset of a full kit you might consider shipping worldwide? PCBs and switches, say? Or alternately, would you be willing to deal with customs if it were only once, to ship a large amount of PCBs and cases to *one* person in the US, for further distribution from there? Or would that even be worth it (would it be cheaper after shipping and such to just split the buy)?

Actually, webwit's profile says he's in the Netherlands, so maybe it'd work for the "one person" you ship to in the US to be massdrop, and us US people could do things that way... especially if maybe someone could volunteer to ship full kits to the maybe 3 (?) people in the US who just *couldn't* live with massdrop.

Or maybe my assumptions are all off - just throwing stuff out there. Options are good

till we can settle on one of them and get this done. Thanks everyone who's been working towards that.

AloisiusFauxly · 07 Dec 2012, 08:31

dirge wrote:I think that may be something to do with this then. We do trust each other a lot on this site and it's a good thing. I've had money like that put into phantom project, went fine. Was there a chance it could have went wrong and I lost that money? Sure! But it didn't.

Yeah, it seems like a good community here. Just need to build up that trust a bit more I guess.

webwit · 07 Dec 2012, 12:59

AloisiusFauxly wrote:Yeah, it seems like a good community here. Just need to build up that trust a bit more I guess.

You must be corrupted that in the name of massdrop you attacked forum members who do not like them, and then come back about trust and community. I don't trust you and your commercial partner and their illegal terms of service. What will it be like? We are not your pals, massdrop is and you will defend them whatever they do, attacking forum members. How much is in it for you to take in these clients? Take a muffin.

AloisiusFauxly · 07 Dec 2012, 23:54

webwit wrote:You must be corrupted that in the name of massdrop you attacked forum members who do not like them, and then come back about trust and community. I don't trust you and your commercial partner and their illegal terms of service. What will it be like? We are not your pals, massdrop is and you will defend them whatever they do, attacking forum members. How much is in it for you to take in these clients? Take a muffin.

Calm down, friend.

I said you had a tinfoil hat only after you called me a corporate apologist. Tit for tat. Other than that, I never attacked anyone, just spoke out against some arguments that I found to be spurious.

As I've said many many times, I don't care what service gets the job done just as long as it gets done. People seem to be stepping up now, so that's great. If it can be kept in the community and everyone is happy about that, then great!

I have no affiliation with Massdrop, so please stop saying that I do.

webwit · 07 Dec 2012, 23:59

You don't build community trust by brushing off valid concerns as spurious claims from silly people, friend.

AloisiusFauxly · 08 Dec 2012, 00:02

Friend, I never said anyone was silly, just some of the claims/arguments and the way they were presented. There's a difference.

webwit · 08 Dec 2012, 00:20

You dismissed them. Like you do now. I'm dismissing your massdrop. Let's leave it at that.

justcallmecrash · 08 Dec 2012, 00:53

Friend...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

So, who else thinks that board up top looks sexy as hell?

AloisiusFauxly · 08 Dec 2012, 01:15

webwit wrote:You dismissed them. Like you do now. I'm dismissing your massdrop. Let's leave it at that.

That which is stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. The way you presented your arguments was lacking, IMO. An argument that wasn't lacking was damorgue's post about getting screwed over by not being able to pursue international warranties. You'll notice I sympathized and ceded that point to him/her.

Also, it's not "my" Massdrop, friend. Can we leave it at that?

lowkey144 · 08 Dec 2012, 05:50

Wow, this went from cold to hot in a hurry. No one 'owns' the execution of the ergodox project (it is, after all, open source) , and no one can dictate how people here communicate unless the ban hammer is brought to bear. The Mass drop may or may not happen, the group buy may or may not happen, but the interaction between webwit and alosius is certainly not constructive. Let's just wait and see how things go with the project without name calling and unprovable allegations.

bisl · 12 Dec 2012, 16:59

Hey all--I heard back from the Massdrop guys again today. Right now, it's looking like the Ergodox buy will be ready to go in January, and will probably run for about a month.

Also, because 3D printing doesn't scale well Massdrop will be offering only litster-style cases, although they will offer it with and without the wrist rest. Those that have their hearts set on the dox-style case can go PCB-only for the buy and order one up on their own since the total cost to the buyer would be the same either way.

Finally, I brought the criticism to them concerning their registration wall, and while they sympathized (after all, it's something people don't like), they need to keep it in place to continue doing business with their suppliers, who from what I can tell essentially demand it. However, since there's no brand to keep happy with Ergodox, they've offered to try to make the Ergodox buy public and freely browsable, as a gesture of goodwill.

Hopefully this type of public implementation could be extended to other group buys in the future, for products that aren't simple retail goods (e.g. caps)? Those are my thoughts though, not their suggestion.

litster · 12 Dec 2012, 17:07

Litster-style! I am cool like PSY now! Have they figured out how to legs will work?

BTW, ask them to do a prototype of the case. What i want to know is how they do quality control with a project like this. I sent the files to him and gave him additional information. But there are so many things that are out of my control and likely massdrop's control, a case prototype would be best before they cut all the case orders.

webwit · 12 Dec 2012, 17:40

I discussed it with my suppliers, and we hope massdrop will die a painful death, with their illegal terms and conditions which beg for such a fate. However there might be a huge market of the gullible. I might be persuaded though if I can also change the terms from my side, without notice.

Those weirdos don't even have any contact info besides some email address on their site, no address etc. What a bad company.

bisl · 12 Dec 2012, 17:58

litster wrote: ask them to do a prototype of the case.

They're doing this now, I believe. I would assume that it's the prototype, as well as the changes to their site, that are setting this so far out, rather than starting it sooner/now.

As for the legs, I'm not sure--did the designs you gave them include the leg mounts like the diagrams you posted a couple months ago?

litster · 12 Dec 2012, 19:44

on the bottom plate drawings, there are 4 holes where you could screw in legs like the ones you get with KMACs. You could also glue on rubber feet. The difference is, for an ergonomic keyboard, you will probably want the middle and/or the back of the keyboard a little higher. nothing rubber feet can't solve, but you might need to try a few different rubber feet setup with different heights. Maybe massdrop can also get a bunch of rubber feet from mcmaster.com and ship with the orders. I used these for my acrylic cases

justcallmecrash · 12 Dec 2012, 19:46

I've used cross-cut pieces of wine corks before. They don't have as much stay-put as rubber feet, but they're free and easy to replace.

AloisiusFauxly · 12 Dec 2012, 22:22

@webwit: But how do you really feel about the legally-operated Massdrop?

Winecorks are a great idea for custom height legs. You could always stick rubber feet on the bottom if you wanted. I'm still of the mind to tap threads and put rubber domes on bolt heads.

webwit · 12 Dec 2012, 22:29

Being dismissive again? What I also hate about massdrop is that they use gullible yet aggressive forum members for their guerrilla marketing. So gullible they advertise a parasitic company with illegal terms and no company details whatsoever.

Aleksander · 12 Dec 2012, 22:45

Ahh.. If only I could get hold of some PCBs so I could make my version of a case and feet :p

Maybe I can make it before if there are some cad-files with good measurements...
Dirge, where did you get your measurements from?

ironman31 · 12 Dec 2012, 22:52

So I'm guessing massdrop is my only option if I want to get this as early as possible?

AloisiusFauxly · 12 Dec 2012, 23:40

webwit wrote:Being dismissive again? What I also hate about massdrop is that they use gullible yet aggressive forum members for their guerrilla marketing. So gullible they advertise a parasitic company with illegal terms and no company details whatsoever.

No, just being tongue and cheek about your post, friend!

Also, their terms are perfectly legal in their jurisdiction. I don't comment on the legality of companies operating out of The Netherlands because I'm not familiar with the laws there.