Model F Battleship connundrum...

[Green Maned Lion]

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I have three 'workstations', one at my stereo, one at my home office desk, and one in my Sprinter van, the latter two being the most used 'workstations'. The computer is a laptop that plugs into one of two docks, one in the van and one in the office- the stereo is in the office and the same dock feeds both keyboard/screen/mouse setups.

For the office desk and van setups I use an IBM M122 Type I, with a custom key layout. I am in the process of working with Unicomp to produce a card or board that will allow the use of a similar keyboard at the stereo setup. Its a very custom layout, picture of which is uploaded.

I have been wanting to replace the office desk setup with a Model F battleship. The question is whether that unit would be an IBM or a Model F projects unit. I am a little unusual in that I truly love the layout of the original Battleship design, including and especially the cross nav. I am also absolutely used to my location for the escape key (which is labeled 'Panic' on the top left of the side F-bank).

I have talked to Joe, I think on here, about his opinion of his board versus the IBM unit, and of course he prefers the Model F project board. He mentions several advantages, including its metal construction (which I don't see as anything other than nuetral; metal and good quality plastic both have their merits), its younger age (which I certainly see as a plus when it comes to electronics), and it not needing a converter, all of which are true. I also think he prefers that for two additional solid reasons: 1) He wants to sell me a board (which I don't see as him being in the wrong), and 2) pictures of his IBM Model F Battleships show that he clearly prefers T-navs.

He has also told me that there are sensing arrays that would permit the activation of a cross nav, which is why this isn't quite a deal breaker, even though the only way to really do this would involve machining out an additional 3 keys worth of holes, and leave two unused key holes (or assign those keys to something else). This does not address the issue that it is still materially different than the layout of an IBM unit, including function key angles, locations, and so forth. I suspect I could get used to having two different layouts in regular use, but I consider it less than ideal.

But there is another issue I face when it comes to IBM F122s- they don't seem to exist in functional condition for sale at the moment; there is one on eBay that has rust issues, a connector issue, and is stated not to work, for $275 + shipping. Since I would probably need to replace its controller card at the very least, and still have no proof of its ability to repair, this seems like a risky proposition, to say the least.

Does anyone have a line on a working F122? Barring that, should I keep my search up- and possibly lose the opportunity to obtain a Model F projects Battleship- or settle for a Model F Projects board? Has anyone on here had the chance to play with both?

[andrewjoy]

I have quite a lot of experience fixing model F boards, almost anything can be fixed its just a case of how much effort you want to put in. Is the board on ebay intact ? What about the springs ? A rusty plate and case is nothing to worry about that can be fixed but if too many springs are gone then you are going to struggle to replace them, if its just a few springs i can help you out there same with barrels but i dont have enough to renovate a whole board. You also want to check if the spacebar, its stabiliser and the tabs are intact , the model F on the 122 uses a thinner stabliser bar than a model M , you can mod it to take them but its not ideal.

Another thing to keep an eye out for is the top case , the plastic of an F is very brittle.

[Green Maned Lion]

I ended up buying one off ebay for a bit more that claimed to have every key click properly, and a good spacebar stabiliser, and appeared to be in better shape. Now I'm just waiting for it to ship over here.

Can an IBM M Battleship case be used if the case is beyond repair? There was a hairline crack but nothing I couldn't live with. This one will be for my home office, rather than the van (I'd imagine it would shatter apart there)

[andrewjoy]

Some of the older M122s used the same sized case as an F but they where not exactly the same, a long long time ago i did read a thread about someone modding one but i don't even remember if it was on geekhack (pre deaskthroity).

If its a hairline crack i would leave it, the plastic is not the best, you could try to get some very thin cyanoacrylate glue in it and then sand and paint it, the plastic texture on the F122s is not that noticeable , RAL7030 if the closest to the IBM industrial grey colour if you are interested in a little mod.

[Green Maned Lion]

I'm more interested in the typing feel of the F then the appearance of the board; my intention is to use it as a daily driver the way I am using my '88 M122 1392149 now. I just want to be able to keep using it if the case somehow falls apart.

[Green Maned Lion]

Machine came in yesterday. I was nervous. I unpacked it- it was beautifully packed- to find a keyboard in truly excellent condition. I took it up to my home work station, unplugged my 1988 M122, found my DIN240 Tinkerboy converter (my home M122 is a 2145, so it uses DIN180), plugged that into the keyboard, hooked up my laptop to the dock, and turned stuff on.

Nothing. I was panicky; but it turned out I never plugged the converter into my USB hub

And except for one key, all keys registered well, and felt magical. Spacebar was perfect. But... the O key didn't register. Didn't sound right, either. Pulled it off a few times, played with the springs, reseated it, etc. Thought I fixed it. I swapped the keys for my custom keyset, which was a bit harder than swapping keys on an M (more first try failures) but not too bad. I simply swapped the caps on two-piecers. Had to add a few insert stabilisers because more keys were bar stabilised on the F, but that worked fine, too.

Except the O key still acts weird. If I leave the key for a while, it won't work. If I am typing a lot, it will start registering more and more often until it registers fine. The sound is off, sort of missing the 'plink', unless I hold it down for a bit, and it plinks softly finally. After me typing a bunch, though, it starts sounding and working fine.

My thought is I'd be fine if I replaced the spring/barrel/flipper on that one key, but I am wondering if regular use of the keyboard will just solve it over time. I didn't fully disassemble it- prefer to avoid that if at all possible - but everything was otherworldly clean- no keyboard cheese at all.

[Muirium]

A dodgy flipper, eh?


viewtopic.php?t=8052

You'll likely need to open it up and take a good look. I wouldn't be surprised if you found a break like this. Those flipper hinges are easily the weakest part of Model Fs in my experience (as the crumbly foam at least stays in place).

Opening them is nothing to be feared. They’re quite nice inside, actually. Fs are much more serviceable than Ms.

The hard part is finding spare parts.

[Falkenroth]

If you open it up have the new foam ready. You're going to need it. Best to just get it replaced either way if you want to daily it.

[Green Maned Lion]

A dodgy flipper, eh?


viewtopic.php?t=8052

You'll likely need to open it up and take a good look. I wouldn't be surprised if you found a break like this. Those flipper hinges are easily the weakest part of Model Fs in my experience (as the crumbly foam at least stays in place).

Opening them is nothing to be feared. They’re quite nice inside, actually. Fs are much more serviceable than Ms.

The hard part is finding spare parts.

Should I be looking for used parts, or are the repros Joe is selling workable?

[Muirium]

I've no idea about Ellipse's bits in OG IBM hardware. Tbh, I suspect Wobbled is right about what you can expect to actually get from him, unless he likes your YouTube channel.

Where are you in the world? I've a few spares. I am, however, in the misty, mystical, interdimensional realm of Scotland.

Oh, and (Peter?) Falkenroth may be right about the foam. I've been lucky, my Kishsaver and my AT were good enough to retain, but foam can aye be crummmmbly.

[Green Maned Lion]

I have ordered a few things from him over time, a single regular key, a couple of sets of mopar arrow keys, 75 clear relegendable's. I got them, not as fast as I'd have liked, but they arrived. I also ordered a B122 from him back on my birthday... which was in July. I suspect I'll be waiting a while for that one.

I don't think he's crooked. I think he's taken on more than he can chew, with not enough profit padding to account for the imponderables and logistics that an experienced businessman would know to take into account. Not endorsing his keyboards, which I have not had hands on experience with, but he strikes me as an archetype of what he is. I also think he assumes, incorrectly, that everyone buying his keyboards are inclined to tinker with mechanical and electrical things. Some are, certainly.

The people who actually enjoy playing with 40 year old keyboards are. The person looking for a reproduction, in most cases, are hoping to avoid the nature of a vintage item. Meaning needing to take it apart from time to time and futz with it.

Also I think he assumes that they understand the nature of this kind of undertaking, which is going to involve a product that is a little half baked because Joe is building a product that hasn't been produced in 40 years in a factory with no experience building them for a price that, given the volume, is not particularly high. I suspect it might have ended up becoming an - entirely unintentional- ponzi scheme. But while I've been in business much of my life, I've never undertaken manufacturing this complicated. So I don't know.

But foam and the flipper/springs/barrels are a lot simpler than the keyboards.

[Muirium]

I don’t think he's crooked either. There's faster ways to make a buck on empty promises, a millionfold as fast!

But neither would I trust his parts to work in your keyboard without (ultimately irreconcilable) issues that will have you mucking around inside it so often it'll be as if that was your hobby, rather than keyboards themselves.

Many (real) Model F owners have spare parts. Hopefully you're none too far away from one.

[Ellipse]

Muirium there have been dozens of orders of folks repairing their original XT, AT and F122 boards with the project's new parts (foam and flippers/springs) and I have received zero complaints about issues.

I like to check up on folks who reach out to me having bought a board several years before and the vast majority note that outside of some small adjustments to the springs and keys and maybe a firmware flash, no other maintenance was required.

Green Maned Lion your accusations are false. I have not "taken on" more than I can handle just because there is a consistent order backlog of a couple months. More than 7,000 keyboards and thousands of non-keyboard orders have shipped since 2019. The reasons behind not raising pricing for everyone to hire staff for order fulfillment (to reduce the backlog) and customer service have been discussed at length.

I noted that the beam spring boards are in production now and that around 100 have been completed in the past month, with the remaining units to be completed in the first several months of next year.

To accuse the project of being a ponzi scheme is completely irresponsible. The orders have shipped except for recent orders in the current backlog and the round 2 beam spring boards that are in production.

I do not assume that folks are inclined to tinker at all. The project philosophy is to direct folks to a step-by-step setup guide to teach during the setup process everything they need to know: adjust springs, reseat keycaps, diagnose issues with their keyboard, etc. so that they can use a keyboard for life, even if they are not inclined to tinker. Even the IBM original Model F keyboards need maintenance, even with the originals which I take apart and replace springs/flippers, replace the capacitive PCB which has sometimes cracked, and I clean the parts.

If you are comparing a new and original Model F, you will have to tinker more with the original for sure, including replacing the controller or setting up an adapter, replacing the foam since it is likely crumbly by now, cleaning every keycap and barrel and also the plates, etc. So far there are not many postings complaining about the new F122. Many postings refer to the 5 year old F62/F77 inventory which is still being sold as that old stock remains, compared to the later generation boards (compact F62/F77, Model M Style, etc.)

[Green Maned Lion]

Muirium there have been dozens of orders of folks repairing their original XT, AT and F122 boards with the project's new parts (foam and flippers/springs) and I have received zero complaints about issues.

I like to check up on folks who reach out to me having bought a board several years before and the vast majority note that outside of some small adjustments to the springs and keys and maybe a firmware flash, no other maintenance was required.

Green Maned Lion your accusations are false. I have not "taken on" more than I can handle just because there is a consistent order backlog of a couple months. More than 7,000 keyboards and thousands of non-keyboard orders have shipped since 2019. The reasons behind not raising pricing for everyone to hire staff for order fulfillment (to reduce the backlog) and customer service have been discussed at length.

I noted that the beam spring boards are in production now and that around 100 have been completed in the past month, with the remaining units to be completed in the first several months of next year.

To accuse the project of being a ponzi scheme is completely irresponsible. The orders have shipped except for recent orders in the current backlog and the round 2 beam spring boards that are in production.

I do not assume that folks are inclined to tinker at all. The project philosophy is to direct folks to a step-by-step setup guide to teach during the setup process everything they need to know: adjust springs, reseat keycaps, diagnose issues with their keyboard, etc. so that they can use a keyboard for life, even if they are not inclined to tinker. Even the IBM original Model F keyboards need maintenance, even with the originals which I take apart and replace springs/flippers, replace the capacitive PCB which has sometimes cracked, and I clean the parts.

If you are comparing a new and original Model F, you will have to tinker more with the original for sure, including replacing the controller or setting up an adapter, replacing the foam since it is likely crumbly by now, cleaning every keycap and barrel and also the plates, etc. So far there are not many postings complaining about the new F122. Many postings refer to the 5 year old F62/F77 inventory which is still being sold as that old stock remains, compared to the later generation boards (compact F62/F77, Model M Style, etc.)

I can understand why what I said came across as an accusation of malfeasance, which I did not intend for it to be. If you are making a good profit on this business, then even better. I stand by my statement that a business that is of the opinion that selling 7000 units of a product is a lot is going to produce something that is less polished than a company that thinks selling 7000 units is bupkes. That is not to imply that the product is inferior, just that it involves more involvement.

Everything I've read about your products indicates that they require a level of involvement that is not required by either a Keychron or a Unicomp. I don't think that's a bad thing; the fact of the matter is that anyone who is spending the kind of money you are charging on a keyboard is somebody who is unusually into keyboards. We both know you can buy a perfectly functional keyboard off Amazon for $10. Rather, somebody who is buying your boards (I have a B122 on order, and I am not complaining- or surprised- by the slipping time frame vs what you were bandying about when I ordered it) or playing with vintage boards (I'm typing this in my van on a 1985 M122).

My main question, was whether it was possible for buy the parts needed for the potential repair of my new to me F122 from you, and on a reasonable time frame because I am already dailying the thing and just putting up with the spotty key. I was also indicating that I felt that if I ordered the parts from you, I would receive them. My purchasing the IBM model was mostly about my preference for the original board's key layout, since I use type I M122s almost exclusively, rather than my belief that I wouldn't receive an F122 from you. In fact, you may recall somebody (that being me) not all that long ago emailed you asking if you had an IBM F122 available for sale.

I've known a lot of people who have gotten in over the head in similar boutique projects, which is why I was stipulating it. If you've dodged that, you have my respect. The complexity of boutique manufacture is almost always underestimated by people who undertake it.

Just to be clear, Joe, you're saying that if I place an order for foam for an IBM F122, some spring/flippers, some barrels, and, while I'm at it, a couple of more sets of Mopar arrow keys, they should fit a November '84 F122 board?

[Falkenroth]

I have personally used Joe's replacement foam in my Model F rebuilds. No complaints here.

I went and looked up a receipt and I even bought flippers and springs on one of the orders.