Tips to get a mint-as-possible original model F?

[Mips]

Looking to get a very clean model F - as close to mint as possible. Does anyone have any hints as to how to go about this? I realise this'll probably be expensive, but I like them to look pretty new. The concerns are:

The silver badge - usually obvious from the photos

Yellowing - not always obvious as the lighting used can make them look yellower. I guess the answer is to buy only the listings that look super-white.

Chips, scuffs, abrasions in the paintwork. Again this is hard to tell as dirt can sometimes look like paint damage.

Here's a good example of a keyboard that's hard to read:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154471589217 ... SwQfdgsX9i

So at first this looks pretty good - the silver badge is ridiculously good - until you notice that it looks a touch off colour. Could this be the lighting though? A totally unyellowed one looks like this: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... 2109540579 Note how the feet turners are perfectly grey as well - these can go really yellow/brown.

Also looking at it, if you look closely in the ebay pictures, there's either some dirt or abrasion at the middle-top of the keyboard above the keys. Is this dirt or paint damage? Very difficult to determine to me.

Added questions:

Is there anything you can do about yellowed model F cases

Is it possible to replace a rough looking IBM silver badge with another new-looking original one?

I've noticed that in ebay listings, some or a couple of the keys often are a bit off-axis like the enter and Prtsc keys in this one:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274811113797 ... SwwW9gritl

Should I completely avoid these or is this correctible?

[Tribal]

Note: OP’s um, original post, asked which original F was best. He seems to have edited it to be a bunch of questions about the AT.

It depends:
How much money do you have?
How much desk space do you have?
How many buttons do you want/need?
Do you prefer ANSI or ISO?
How handy are you?
Are you willing to buy from China?

The short answer is: probably the Unsaver (but you can’t get one).

XTs and 3178s should be cheapest, although the market is insane right now. If you prefer ANSI, these are going to be a little uncomfortable.

F122 and the larger 4704s are huge and will take some patience to find.

Ellipse’s F62/F77 looks excellent...so long as you’re willing to support China. A used one, if you can find it, avoids this problem.

AT might be the best all-around. It’s very easy to convert to ANSI (and add three numpad buttons), isn’t prohibitively expensive, and can be modded a few ways (internal Soarer’s, Alt-mod).

[Mips]

Thanks very much @Tribal, really great info here. I'm looking towards the AT I think, probably ISO as I'm in the UK and also because I love the big enter key. But I'm also looking for a low use/clean one, so I realise I probably can't be too choosy about the exact model.

So sorry, I don't usually have this kind of forum etiquette but I completely changed my post and included other questions! I was hoping to edit quickly before anyone posted.

[fohat]

I'm also looking for a low use/clean one

The IBM Model F is one of the best examples of a keyboard that can realistically be brought to "very-near-new" condition with some work.

[Mips]

The IBM Model F is one of the best examples of a keyboard that can realistically be brought to "very-near-new" condition with some work.

Good to know - do you have any pointers?

[fohat]

This keyboard can be broken down to all of its individual parts, which can be thoroughly cleaned and which are made of superior materials that last almost indefinitely (except for the foam mat in the center of the "sandwich" of internal plates, and which can break down with time even inside a box that has never been opened).

The Model F case does have a frustrating peculiarity in that the "core" is a shiny nearly-white plastic with a textured beige-ish coating. If that coating wears off or chips away you will not be able to reproduce that color and texture exactly.

I posted a guide for the 122-key terminal model, but they are all assembled in the same way. At the time I was looking for a way to do a "bolt-mod" like people do with Model Ms, but later decided that keeping the original tabs and augmenting them with about 3 "helper" bolts was the optimum solution.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48 ... msg1048948

[Mips]

@fohat - thanks and that is amazing and very dedicated work! And love that graphite blue paint job on the third photo down.

However I'm looking for a near-new board with the feel of just being bought. This will be expensive and rare but I'm patient. I also don't have your skill, time and dedication to do what you do. I'm pretty busy so it's more convenient and preferable to just buy mint.

[Shifty]

Is there anything you can do about yellowed model F cases

I am pretty sure AT cases can't yellow. There was some discussion at one point I think, that there might have been some AT cases made from a different material? Maybe? But the standard ones do not yellow as far as I know. I think that the flip out feet also do not yellow, but some ATs seem to have yellower feet than others. I have one fairly rough AT and one pristine one, and oddly the pristine one has much yellower feet. But they are evenly yellowed, whereas if it was caused by UV exposure you would expect the upper parts to be more yellowed, so I suspect it's just the plastic itself that is more yellow.

I've noticed that in ebay listings, some or a couple of the keys often are a bit off-axis like the enter and Prtsc keys in this one:

The keys on a model F have a little play in that axis, they can rotate freely a few degrees left or right. That's just how the caps are made, nothing to worry about.

[Mips]

@Shifty - yes actually I think I remember saying the ATs don’t yellow. And they have the nicer layout too. I guess the ultimate fir me would be an iso AT with the big enter key.

The only think putting me off is the reportedly stiff spacebar. Has anyone tried the mod and can you really get a model M type lighter feel by bending the bar without causing rattling or other negative side effects?

[Shifty]

Yes, that mod is necessary IMO. The spacebar is absurdly heavy otherwise, borderline unusable. Once modded it's fine, mine isn't loose or rattly in any way. I thought you were only looking at ATs, but my previous comments should apply to other model Fs as far as I know.

[Mips]

@Shifty - Yes I’m just looking at ATs now. Good to know you managed to get it right, was it hard to do? I hear the F is a nightmare to get back together.

[Shifty]

It can be very hard, depends on the firmness of the foam. I constructed a kind of wooden clamp that fits the curve of the plates, maybe others have some easier solutions. The spacebar mod itself is pretty easy however.

[Mips]

OK that sounds well beyond me. I’d rather find an experienced keyboard enthusiast and pay them to do it. I’m sure there’s a few here in the UK.

Good to know. I guess it’s just a case of waiting on Model F eBay alerts until a near mint AT comes up eventually. Just got to be patient & enjoy the Model M in the meantime.

Am I right that I don’t need an active converter for the AT - just an AT to PS2 physical converter, then PS2 to USB physical converter?

[fohat]

with the feel of just being bought.

This is a keyboard that really doesn't change or wear with use, in fact a solid argument can be made that it does not employ mechanical switches at all.

I doubt that you could tell any difference whatsoever if you were blindfolded.

[Mips]

@Fohat - Wow, I didn’t know that, what a huge advantage - amazing what IBM did back then.

I still want a mint unit for the look though. I’m a bit fussy/OCD with that. Going to be expensive though!

[Wazrach]

At the time I was looking for a way to do a "bolt-mod" like people do with Model Ms, but later decided that keeping the original tabs and augmenting them with about 3 "helper" bolts was the optimum solution.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48 ... msg1048948

I ended up doing this on my latest F122 which was already super crisp with 3mm foam, and it helped even more.

[Wazrach]

It can be very hard, depends on the firmness of the foam. I constructed a kind of wooden clamp that fits the curve of the plates, maybe others have some easier solutions. The spacebar mod itself is pretty easy however.

I was thinking of doing that for a while but ended up not needing it. I now use 3mm neoprene foam, several Rapesco 32mm paper clips, a bar clamp and a hammer.

[vincent]

I still want a mint unit for the look though. I’m a bit fussy/OCD with that. Going to be expensive though!

I’m exactly like this for my typewriter hobby. Snagged some beautiful machines but often overpaid for them. Make sure to update this thread with pics!

[Mips]

@Vincent - Would love to see them!

[Go-Kart]

Hey Mips! I haven't got an F for you but just wanted to say hi from a fellow U.K. enthusiast

[Tritian]

Here's my F AT. It got a little banged up by FedEx and has some paint chips (lower left). Also the F AT badge is a bit scratched.

Anyway, I ansi modded mine and turned the numpad into a 20key so i would have more options for layouts. Soarers converter is nice for changing layouts. Opening the assembly and modifying was pretty easy, all you really need is some pliers. Putting it all back together was a little trickier, just because of the spacebar... but if you have something thin and flat to keep the flipper down when you put it back together it's pretty simple. Clamps might help also if you have more aggressive foam, but wasn't required on mine.

I know a lot of people hate the heavy spacebar but I actually love it. It only took me about a few hours to get used to it and when i go to other keyboards i miss how satisfying it is.

I actually own two F AT's. One of them has slightly yellower feet/ears but i dont know if they were actually yellowed... The cases shouldn't yellow as they are painted, and the caps are dye sub PBT.

[Rhododendron]

@Redmaus had a Model F XT NIB (maybe multiple?) for sale for a long time, for a very fair price. You could ask if he maybe has one?

[Rhododendron]

@Redmaus had a Model F XT NIB (maybe multiple?) for sale for a long time, for a very fair price. You could ask if he maybe has one?

[Wazrach]

@Redmaus had a Model F XT NIB (maybe multiple?) for sale for a long time, for a very fair price. You could ask if he maybe has one?

He actually ran out. I think I bought the last one a few months ago! I know because I tried to buy another.

Edit: My bad, I am thinking of the NOS 5155 Model F XT assemblies.

[Mips]

Hey Mips! I haven't got an F for you but just wanted to say hi from a fellow U.K. enthusiast

Hi! Good to see, I wonder how many more from the UK are on here? I'll probably be looking for an experienced keyboard guy to restore the AT I eventually pick up so hopefully there's a UK expert on here.

I know a lot of people hate the heavy spacebar but I actually love it. It only took me about a few hours to get used to it and when i go to other keyboards i miss how satisfying it is.

Lovely board - good to know you like the spacebar. And I've seen others mentioning boards getting damaged in the post, I'll collect mine when I buy or ask the seller to use loads of bubble wrap. But I thought the ATs were the ones that aren't painted? I must have this wrong, for some reason I thought the XTs are painted and the ATs are like the Ms.

@Redmaus had a Model F XT NIB (maybe multiple?) for sale for a long time, for a very fair price. You could ask if he maybe has one?

Cheers, just PM'd him.

[Go-Kart]

Hey Mips! I haven't got an F for you but just wanted to say hi from a fellow U.K. enthusiast

Hi! Good to see, I wonder how many more from the UK are on here? I'll probably be looking for an experienced keyboard guy to restore the AT I eventually pick up so hopefully there's a UK expert on here.

There's plenty of Brits on here; a handful particularly active. Certainly quite a few of them are F/bucking spring enthusiasts too so one of would likely be able to help you. However, in my experience on here, in buying an F you should seek help from our continental fellows. There's a few over there with more Fs than they know what to do with. If you cast your line out on the WTB or even message one or two of them you think may have a board they'd be willing to get rid of, you should be get a nice Model F sooner rather than later. QWERTZ Fs may be the easiest target to hit. Seek out a set of caps after the fact would be my advice. Just ready your wallet!

[Mips]

There's plenty of Brits on here; a handful particularly active. Certainly quite a few of them are F/bucking spring enthusiasts too so one of would likely be able to help you. However, in my experience on here, in buying an F you should seek help from our continental fellows. There's a few over there with more Fs than they know what to do with. If you cast your line out on the WTB or even message one or two of them you think may have a board they'd be willing to get rid of, you should be get a nice Model F sooner rather than later. QWERTZ Fs may be the easiest target to hit. Seek out a set of caps after the fact would be my advice. Just ready your wallet!

This is all great advice, thanks. I've posted a WTB thread. Good to know our Eureopean friends are overburdened with them! I'm trying to think of how to find the most likely forum members to approach - do you know any names in particular by chance?

[fohat]

I know a lot of people hate the heavy spacebar but I actually love it.

There is a solution but it is obscure.

viewtopic.php?p=329812#p329812

The comment by 010010 is correct, I have sometimes (but not always) found them under the space bars of Wheel Writer typewriters - the later ones with Model M-style keyboards (which are also equipped with nice heavy 1-piece keys plus the elusive "Code" key).

[Go-Kart]

There's plenty of Brits on here; a handful particularly active. Certainly quite a few of them are F/bucking spring enthusiasts too so one of would likely be able to help you. However, in my experience on here, in buying an F you should seek help from our continental fellows. There's a few over there with more Fs than they know what to do with. If you cast your line out on the WTB or even message one or two of them you think may have a board they'd be willing to get rid of, you should be get a nice Model F sooner rather than later. QWERTZ Fs may be the easiest target to hit. Seek out a set of caps after the fact would be my advice. Just ready your wallet!

This is all great advice, thanks. I've posted a WTB thread. Good to know our Eureopean friends are overburdened with them! I'm trying to think of how to find the most likely forum members to approach - do you know any names in particular by chance?

I'd say one will approach you from that post over the next week or so. However, if you wish to be more active, try searching the sale threads for Fs and messaging those users that have posted one for sale in the past two years, unless they've stated the keyboard was sold. It may also be worth PM'n users who have recently posted "Reducing Collection Size" type threads to see if they'd be willing to get rid of a board they hadn't previously thought about selling.

As for naming specific people, I wouldn't be so bold but DT is a friendly place. Make friends and see what comes of it.

[Mips]

I'd say one will approach you from that post over the next week or so. However, if you wish to be more active, try searching the sale threads for Fs and messaging those users that have posted one for sale in the past two years, unless they've stated the keyboard was sold. It may also be worth PM'n users who have recently posted "Reducing Collection Size" type threads to see if they'd be willing to get rid of a board they hadn't previously thought about selling.

Great advice, thanks I'll get on it. This forum's corrupted me, I won't be satisfied until I've at least tried an AT