APT tactile & clicky Hall effect keyboards review

[Chyros]

A pair of really cool keyboards this week, the new clicky and tactile Hall effect boards from Ace Pad Tech! Hope you enjoy the video .

[green-squid]

Thank you for the video on these! I enjoyed it. Are these switches better than buckling springs?

[Sangdrax]

They really are improving these a lot. I don't like a lot of new boards, but I've been watching these the last year or so and it keeps getting harder to not grab one.

[Iggy]

They really are improving these a lot. I don't like a lot of new boards, but I've been watching these the last year or so and it keeps getting harder to not grab one.

Me too! There's a lot to like about them. It's not a question if I'll get one but when.

[Elrick]

HOT DAMN...

Want the Clicky 104 version. Bet these will first appear on MassDrop. If MD supplies it, THIS may be the First decent new keyboard available for purchase this year.

Before the Ellipse F77 shows itself .

[Big Bricced]

where can i choose to get the tkl tactile version?

[Chyros]

For anyone looking to buy one but having difficulty buying through their awful website, contact macy@ace-pad-tech.com; she will handle it for you.

[andrewjoy]

I am tempted with the new TKL in matte black but if they are still working on it i am tempted to wait for a v4 , the sound is MUCH better but its not quite there yet, its about 90% done IMO. It has the look of the NeXT keyboards about it and i like that , was in a group buy for em but as Mµ had to sort family stuff it never arrived . So this may fill my simple matte black needs . Its like a little black dress for keyboard nerds

[depletedvespene]

It has the look of the NeXT keyboards about it

Let us hope they don't adopt NeXT keyboards' endlessness.

[Darkshado]

Let's say the website isn't "westerner friendly" right now
Any word on ISO layouts?

[Chyros]

Let's say the website isn't "westerner friendly" right now
Any word on ISO layouts?

Ask her!

[Elrick]

Let's say the website isn't "westerner friendly" right now
Any word on ISO layouts?

Ask her!

Sent off an email a couple of days before hoping to get a 104 keyed all Black casing keyboard.

Haven't yet heard from her but I sure hope she can understand my key pressings, that can confuse some english speaking people let alone freak out some asian people.

I was born asymmetrical hence all of my postings are off putting .

YES, this beautiful girl got in contact with me about this keyboard, sent her my address for shipping so should soon get the final pricing for this unique keyboard soon.

[TuxKey]

Nice review as always..

i like that they have the caps-lock light on the right..
They need to work on the tactile switches...
And they need to go with QMK compatibility (OpenSource).
Don’t misunderstand i am not asking everyone go out and learn QMK..
They can use what ever they want to ship with their boards..
As long as they give people the option to flash it using QMK.

[Big Bricced]

For anyone looking to buy one but having difficulty buying through their awful website, contact macy@ace-pad-tech.com; she will handle it for you.

thank fucking god M8

[Bjerrk]

What happened with these boards and switches?

I see that there was quite some excitement about them a couple of years ago, but now they're rarely mentioned. I'm always interested in Hall effect switches, so I'm curious.

The reviews on Mass Drop seem very negative ...

[XMIT]

Hi, I'm XMIT and I worked with Ace and MassDrop to bring these boards to market.

What happened was that I annoyed the vendor by continuing to ask them to make the boards easier to port to QMK by using more consistent microcontrollers. They refused my assistance to help with hardware and software work.

So, Ace and Massdrop decided to "cut out the middleman" so to say and deal with one another directly. A big part of the success of these boards was my product management, product design, and QA work. With that gone, there weren't many buyers.

Ace really wanted to be a full-on keyboard company. But, after things went south with MassDrop, they eventually went out of business. I was in touch with them and they claim that the molds used for the switches were no longer serviceable. I never got a complete bill-of-materials from them so I wasn't able to source any of their components.

So, these boards are defunct.

The closest replacement will be the Keystone boards by input.club for the time being.

[Bjerrk]

Hi, I'm XMIT and I worked with Ace and MassDrop to bring these boards to market.

What happened was that I annoyed the vendor by continuing to ask them to make the boards easier to port to QMK by using more consistent microcontrollers. They refused my assistance to help with hardware and software work.

So, Ace and Massdrop decided to "cut out the middleman" so to say and deal with one another directly. A big part of the success of these boards was my product management, product design, and QA work. With that gone, there weren't many buyers.

Ace really wanted to be a full-on keyboard company. But, after things went south with MassDrop, they eventually went out of business. I was in touch with them and they claim that the molds used for the switches were no longer serviceable. I never got a complete bill-of-materials from them so I wasn't able to source any of their components.

So, these boards are defunct.

The closest replacement will be the Keystone boards by input.club for the time being.

Alright, thanks for the comprehensive explanation, XMIT. Sounds like some excellent ideas were had, even if execution didn't exactly pan out in the end.

I'm looking forward to the Keystone (or the switches, really. The keyboard seems like the usual RGB+black plastic aesthetic).

[XMIT]

I think it would have helped tremendously had I gotten on a plane and met these nice folks.

Incidentally, I was supposed to do exactly that in the fall of 2018. Unfortunately, my travel plans were linked to another event that got canceled and the whole trip was scrubbed. I was just starting to apply for my Chinese visa...

Had I visited in person, I would have gotten a really good sense for just how big (really, how small!) their operation was, and how much our success depended on one another's efforts.

I still want to bring magnetic sensing keyboards back in some meaningful way but at the moment helping with the Electronics Plus liquidation is keeping me plenty busy.

[Bjerrk]

I still want to bring magnetic sensing keyboards back in some meaningful way but at the moment helping with the Electronics Plus liquidation is keeping me plenty busy.

Absolutely, you're doing the Lord's work there.

Regarding magnetic sensing switches: How do you place them, in relation to other contactless designs?
I must admit, part of my interest in them comes from being a research physicist by profession. I just think the Hall effect is neat High smoothness and durability are of course a bonus.

[XMIT]

Regarding magnetic sensing switches: How do you place them, in relation to other contactless designs?

The reason I went with Ace was because I thought, from the beginning, that putting the sensors in a planar arrangement on the board was the best possible solution. Apart from a few minor details of the exact shape of the switches (I would have preferred Topre style round stems, for example), the solution is really elegant. The entire board can be SMT assembled and potted.

Vintage Hall effect - Micro Switch boards - have the Hall sensor on a daughterboard perpendicular to the main board, with the magnet on a slider. That admittedly allows the use of a cheaper ferrous magnet but takes a ton of Z height and vastly increases complexity. Indeed, ultra strong rare earth magnets are critical for the planar sensor arrangement to really work well.

I never did work out the exact field strength values but I wouldn't put a credit card on one of the Ace boards.

Hall sensors are somewhat fiddly. They need to be calibrated and run through a Schmitt trigger. For the most part vendors do this for you so it's mostly plug and play.

The Keystone uses discrete "switches" (really magnet holders with a tactile element) but still uses a planar PCB. That board was designed with my design input. The only bad thing I can say about it is that I'm not making any money off of it.

I've thought about Cherry MX pin compatible drop in Hall switch replacements, co-opting the LED backlighting pins and/or the PCB mounting hole locations for power. But it just adds complexity like the old Micro Switch assemblies did.

[Muirium]

I've thought about Cherry MX pin compatible drop in Hall switch replacements, co-opting the LED backlighting pins and/or the PCB mounting hole locations for power. But it just adds complexity like the old Micro Switch assemblies did.

Wait! MX PCB compatible Hall effect switches. You have my attention!

Caps compatibility is one thing. Switch PCB + plate footprint compatibility is quite another. That would be magnificent! For custom keyboard builders and MX keyboard modders alike. There's just so much ecosystem around MX clone switches you're starting much further ahead if you can play nice inside it.

So, Hall effect switches need separate power? Which means >2 pins and therefore diminishing returns in the compatibility stakes. They presumably also need a different controller, surely?

You've got me wondering if discrete MX mount capsense modules could be a thing. Single switch assemblies with the sense pads right in there. As far as I know, capacitive sensing matrices are all just 2 contacts per key. But they definitely need alternate controllers.

[XMIT]

The Keystone boards use a 14mm square plate cut out and are somewhat compatible with existing Cherry style infrastructure. But the sensors are on the PCB.

What I'm describing would require a new PCB *and* a new switch design. Too much work, too little benefit.

[Go-Kart]

I was only just thinking about these boards today. Out of the three modern HE boards that I was aware of, the APT ones grabbed my attention. Sad to hear that it didn't work out.

If anyone were to figure out MX PCB compatible HE switches, they could likely charge the Earth considering what some of these custom recolours go for!

[Chyros]

Ever since APT started making HE boards again, other manufacturers have picked up the technology as well. Steelseries have been doing them for a while now (according to them they had been developing them at the same time as APT), and Input Club and Wooting are following the same path – I hope to be able to cover both of those soon as well. The APT design was solid for a first generation, and really helped push the boundaries of current switch technology, but in retrospect they were not optimally executed, and in my opinion don't stand up to current contactless switches anymore.

I don't think it's either advisable or even desirable to work around MX PCB compatibility considering the efforts it would involve. Rather than trying to adapt everything to fit an arguably inferior design, why not just move forward and let new designs stand on their own merits?

[Go-Kart]

[...] but in retrospect they were not optimally executed, and in my opinion don't stand up to current contactless switches anymore.

I suppose it's a healthy sign that the technology has moved so swiftly.

I don't think it's either advisable or even desirable to work around MX PCB compatibility considering the efforts it would involve. Rather than trying to adapt everything to fit an arguably inferior design, why not just move forward and let new designs stand on their own merits?

I think the MX hegemony, and the amount money swirling around it (if Instagram is anything to by), is too a healthy a market footing to ignore for smaller companies with these more niche offerings. One would hope when a superior technology, such as H.E. and Opto-Electric, has established itself in the minds of the general keyboard enthusiast, greater change in PCB designs/compatibility would gain favour more easily. Conversely, making a MX PCB compatible H.E. switch may doom us to MX PCB compatibility forever

[Elrick]

I think the MX hegemony, and the amount money swirling around it (if Instagram is anything to by), is too a healthy a market footing to ignore for smaller companies with these more niche offerings.

MX area alone eclipses all others. That is evident with the huge sums of money moving towards custom Korean Keyboards and their ilk.

Every time a NEW (old) design is shown, it's sold out in minutes, particularly when it's coloured like a rainbow and has that ever infamous 'Made in Korea' Logo.

One would hope when a superior technology, such as H.E. and Opto-Electric, has established itself in the minds of the general keyboard enthusiast, greater change in PCB designs/compatibility would gain favour more easily. Conversely, making a MX PCB compatible H.E. switch may doom us to MX PCB compatibility forever

Also, if a totally new (none MX) switch design is launched, it MUST have superior keys supplied with it from the get go. That alone will see if the whole design package becomes attractive to own and use, or it simply becomes another failure.

[XMIT]

I missed you elrick!

[Go-Kart]

Also, if a totally new (none MX) switch design is launched, it MUST have superior keys supplied with it from the get go. That alone will see if the whole design package becomes attractive to own and use, or it simply becomes another failure.

I think this is one of the saving graces of Topre.

[Muirium]

Absolutely. Topres are just magnificent, right out of the box. All they really need extra is modular controllers (like the HHKB!) or QMK built in. Everything else is frosting, which of course we'll do anyway…

Elrick et al are quite right: for any other switch technology to take off, MX compatibility is absolutely key, and the more ways the better. Caps are just the start of it. The sweet spot is drop-in replacements, like Gateron etc. The hardest part about this being the need for a passive 2-pin solid state output. Easy for contact switches, but impossible for Hall effect or capsense… as we know them yet.

[daguil68367]

One thing I would really love to see, is a revival of Pawnerd's inductive switch project.

https://alltrons.com/analog-keyboard-technology/

Being able to turn any existing keyboard switch analog, and therefore adjust the actuation point in itself is amazing, but I think the real potential lies with Matias switches. Using this inductive switch technology would allow for removal of the contact leaves, which plague an otherwise great switch with chattering, and get rid of the large second bump after the first one caused by the tactile/click leaves.

Matias switches combined with this technology would absolutely destroy existing MX tactiles.