OLKB Planck review - ON HELIUM! (Zealio 65 g)

[Lustique]

As we're now kind of on the topic of things that don't agree with you, and because I'm genuinely curious: Do you really think that MX (type) switches are (that) bad, or is it more a case of you just not liking them and expressing that opinion of yours like you do (that is as fact) to trigger people?

I don't hate Cherry MX. I just think it's not as good as most other options. Worse, people are being hoarded into the MX camp as being the one, true and only option out there without even being given the chance to try out something else. I'm convinced that most keyboard fans that like MX would like alternatives better. So basically I think it doesn't deserve its great reputation, and I call it out on that.

[…]

More specifically, I think all types of Cherry MX switches are flawed, and in the areas that are most crucial to those types of switches, too:
-Linear Cherry switches are scratchy and badly weighted;
-Tactile Cherry switches are not tactile;
-Clicky Cherry switches are insufficiently tactile and the clicky sound is awful.

There are some that I definitely dislike more than others; MX brown in particular is, to me, just an incredibly failed switch design. It's still better than a crappy rubber dome board, mind you, but it should've been so much better than it is. MX blue is okayish, probably the best of the bunch, but annoying to listen to - moreover, the competition in the clicky switch camp in particularly is extremely cutthroat as IMO most of the best-designed switches are clicky.
[…]

Thanks for that detailed explanation! It's just that I don't see the problems you're addressing.

• I can type perfectly well with MX Blacks and don' t think they're too heavy, at all. I also don't think they're scratchy.
• I think the tactility of MX Browns is perfectly noticeable and I'm not even sure whether I'd like switches where the tactile bump is much more pronounced. I feel a sudden loss of resistance would mean I'd bottom out all the time (as with rubber domes), and that's something I don't like and try to avoid whenever possible.
• As with Browns, I don't see any problems with the tactility, either, and, as far as I can remember (I haven't used my MX Blue board in a while) I liked the clicky sound, as well.

On the other hand, I might just be one of those people that have never really been ‘given the chance to try out something else’, as the only non-Cherry switch I have tried so far are Buckling Springs. While I also like those, I didn't feel that they were in any way better than Cherry switches, just very very different. Hell, I even (kind of) like MY switches (vintage and modern), so I'm either a unicorn or there is something very wrong with me. At this point I'm almost convinced that you could throw any switch in my general direction and I'd like it (eventually), so it seems we're kind of polar opposites in this regard. Most keyboard people, including you, seem to be much more sensitive to switch feel than I am.

[…]
Of course, I realise that most of the alternatives I'm talking about have certain acquisition problems associated with them; you can't just buy a great Alps board by the dozen everywhere, for example. Similarly, if you're one of those people that really like custom keycaps or a rainbow light show, your options in this field are limited. But if, like me, you care a lot about the switches, I don't see how MX and all their ilk have much of a leg to stand on. […]

Oh yes, unfortunately. I don't think I have, for example, ever seen an (inexpensive) ISO Alps board on German ebay, apart from the occasional Matias board (which aren't exactly inexpensive), or, which is more likely, I have never identified one as having Alps. Detecting Cherry boards seems to be a lot easier. Just thinking of going down the list of keyboards that might have Alps switches on the Wiki and searching for those on ebay gives me a headache, and most Alps boards that are offered here are both ANSI and located in the US, so that's a double no-no.

On the other front we're much more in agreement, I think. I don't see the point in either artisans (even subtle ones), nor in backlighting, and don't like colourful keysets. I think the most colour I could endure would be RGB(Y) modifiers, a differently coloured Esc key, or something like that. (That's also why I can't take /r/mk seriously…) What I like are classic colour schemes like Dolch, Olivetti, Cherry beige + grey, etc., or just plain black/white. My keyboard with the most colourful keycaps is probably my Model M, and the only colour there is the green legend of the (left) Alt key.

On another note: Maybe you should really try out some sulfur hexafluoride next time. Then I'd watch out for horny elephants, though.

[seebart]

Ohh...I see your thread has morphed into the old MX vs. the rest of the world topic Tom, I sure your thoroughly enjoying this.

smilie_ugly_016.gif (578 Bytes) Viewed 6211 times

Joking aside Im sure all you here realise that MX is not always equal to MX just like is the case with Alps SKCM. There are "degrees" of brilliance or shittiness which ever way your prefernece happens to be. After recently trying loose Gaterons for the frist time thanks to Phenix I can say it is a good thing for all of us when a company gets some real competition. The days of the unlimited Cherry MX realm are over once and for all when Gateron and their counterparts are refined further. Cherry has a lot to loose including their name which is a lot of what they make up. With Alps its not so "rosy". Matias is not a real option for anyone who has ever tried clean unworn SKCM/SKCL swtiches. That said I am a person who can appreciate vitage MX and let me tell you when their good...vintage blacks and nixies are quite nice.

[deacon]

I started to multi-quote but it got messy.

AFA MX:
Nope.

AFA Planck:
Thank you for explaining your perspective. Knowing where you were coming from is helpful and I appreciate the work you put in. Sometimes it is hard to relate to these things from so deep down the rabbit hole. I can see that you were replicating how the majority of people would be approaching the Planck and this represents the vast majority of your viewer base. You certainly went deeper than the "Meh..." reaction or "It's cool, buy it!" from most (largely compensated) reviewers.

AFA Benefit:
100% of people who are me were able to reduce or eliminate the pain and frustration I had typing on a standard keyboard. Unfortunately I never had funding to do a larger study.

The Planck is in an interesting place between ergonomic keyboards based on research and standard keyboards based on legacy. I feel it's niche is centered around efficiency. That can have benefits in a number of ways both ergonomic and practical.

Most of the advantages of the Planck however require a bit of investment and it wouldn't really benefit anyone who wasn't needing or looking for them. If I could type at an average level on a standard keyboard I never would have sought out the Planck.

Outside of it's usage as an adaptive device by people like me, there is a portion of the Planck user base that leverages it's efficiency and programmablity to augment their typed work. Again, this requires significant investment to gain a benefit that isn't readily documented outside of the people doing it.

It's kind of like a blacksmith making his own tools to suit him or a carpenter who has a library of jigs to make complicated work easier.

Most of the other stuff out there is unboxing and building or a quick review on a demo unit which can't delve deep enough. There are a couple that stand out and illustrate a different side of the Planck.

This guy does a pretty good job of getting to the point.
https://youtu.be/vle_EgrFHSM?t=138

I like Troy Fletcher's thoughts on the subject but his unscripted stuff can get a little ponderous, like me!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGXZ1ReU54

I appreciate the discussion around this and the opportunity to stop lurking and I hope participate productively.

-D

[codemonkeymike]

<<snip>>
AFA Benefit:
100% of people who are me were able to reduce or eliminate the pain and frustration I had typing on a standard keyboard. Unfortunately I never had funding to do a larger study.
<<snip>>

There is actually a study widely quoted by the company that makes the Type Matrix keyboard expounding the benefits of ortholinear/matrix keys

[Chyros]

Yes, it definitely appears to be an efficiency thing more than anything. Which I can appreciate, actually. It just happens to be the exact opposite way of how I'd do it xD . But that's cool .

[Wodan]

I don't hate Cherry MX. I just think it's not as good as most other options. Worse, people are being hoarded into the MX camp as being the one, true and only option out there without even being given the chance to try out something else. I'm convinced that most keyboard fans that like MX would like alternatives better. So basically I think it doesn't deserve its great reputation, and I call it out on that.

Of course, I realise that most of the alternatives I'm talking about have certain acquisition problems associated with them; you can't just buy a great Alps board by the dozen everywhere, for example. Similarly, if you're one of those people that really like custom keycaps or a rainbow light show, your options in this field are limited. But if, like me, you care a lot about the switches, I don't see how MX and all their ilk have much of a leg to stand on.

More specifically, I think all types of Cherry MX switches are flawed, and in the areas that are most crucial to those types of switches, too:
-Linear Cherry switches are scratchy and badly weighted;
-Tactile Cherry switches are not tactile;
-Clicky Cherry switches are insufficiently tactile and the clicky sound is awful.

That's exactly why I am having so much trouble taking your shit talk about Cherry MX switches ...

In an effort to make more out of your videos than just a review of one particular keyboard, you start to generalize and draw conclusions from few samples that you then spread like facts when you really have neither got a proper sample size nor put your observations into a proper context.

- Cherry MX switches have been in production for more than 35 years now. That's more than twice as long as SKCL/SKCM Alps yet you have a very distinctive opinion about each coloured variant Alps came up with during the relatively short production span and differentiate between them. Just saying - Blue Alps have been in production for FOUR years according to the wiki. So you give Alps the benefit of judging their switches independently for every 3-5 years of production period while you refuse to differentiate between 2015 MX Reds and 1988 MX Blacks?

- When you talk about tactile switches you pretty much refer to late 2000s - mid 2010s MX Browns. Why turn this into "Tactile Cherry switches" when you obviously haven't got a clue about MX Clears (early and recent ones). Again an attempt to make your opinion sound like more than it is.

- Acting like there are "alternatives" ... you kinda see that your self - there's hardly a scenario where you really got an alternative to MX switches and clones. Well unless you like typing on 80s fullsize keyboards with Alps switches that just happen to be in a great condition.

Stop trying to make more out of your videos and experiences than there is. I understand you really want to generalize to add importance to your opinion and be the expert but I just don't see where you got a good enough overview to make such generalized statements over 35 years of Cherry MX production. I totally agree on many things you mention about Cherry switches - they are very hard to object - but that's not enough for you. No matter the sample size, you really have to turn it into a general verdict about "Linear Cherry switches". Try to differentiate a little more. Simplified bullet-point verdicts might be the perfect form of communication for Reddit but you really underestimate DT if you think people here will take this kind of crap.

[Starck]

I know everyone likes his own switch the most and tries to defend it..

But try to laugh a little. It is a very fun review to watch and the gaming section is hilarious.

[Wodan]

I know everyone likes his own switch the most and tries to defend it..

But try to laugh a little. It is a very fun review to watch and the gaming section is hilarious.

Not denying that. Used to be a big fan of Chyros videos, even contributed/donated a board a while back.
And it's interesting to get these first hand impressions of some really nice boards.

But that's what it is ... videos with first hand impressions of a lot of very cool keyboards.

[Chyros]

That's exactly why I am having so much trouble taking your shit talk about Cherry MX switches ...

In an effort to make more out of your videos than just a review of one particular keyboard, you start to generalize and draw conclusions from few samples that you then spread like facts when you really have neither got a proper sample size nor put your observations into a proper context.

- Cherry MX switches have been in production for more than 35 years now. That's more than twice as long as SKCL/SKCM Alps yet you have a very distinctive opinion about each coloured variant Alps came up with during the relatively short production span and differentiate between them. Just saying - Blue Alps have been in production for FOUR years according to the wiki. So you give Alps the benefit of judging their switches independently for every 3-5 years of production period while you refuse to differentiate between 2015 MX Reds and 1988 MX Blacks?

- When you talk about tactile switches you pretty much refer to late 2000s - mid 2010s MX Browns. Why turn this into "Tactile Cherry switches" when you obviously haven't got a clue about MX Clears (early and recent ones). Again an attempt to make your opinion sound like more than it is.

- Acting like there are "alternatives" ... you kinda see that your self - there's hardly a scenario where you really got an alternative to MX switches and clones. Well unless you like typing on 80s fullsize keyboards with Alps switches that just happen to be in a great condition.

Stop trying to make more out of your videos and experiences than there is. I understand you really want to generalize to add importance to your opinion and be the expert but I just don't see where you got a good enough overview to make such generalized statements over 35 years of Cherry MX production. I totally agree on many things you mention about Cherry switches - they are very hard to object - but that's not enough for you. No matter the sample size, you really have to turn it into a general verdict about "Linear Cherry switches". Try to differentiate a little more. Simplified bullet-point verdicts might be the perfect form of communication for Reddit but you really underestimate DT if you think people here will take this kind of crap.

And this is my problem with your comments - you keep shit-talking about me without having ANY IDEA what you're talking about. You seem to be under the impression that the only keyboards I have and have had are the ones I've shown, whereas in reality I've had so many Cherry keyboards I couldn't even give you a correct multiple of ten. It's well in excess of a hundred, though.

You want me to compare 1988 vintage blacks to 2017 MX reds? Sure, I've had several of both. Or old and new MX clears? Sure, whatever. I've had so many Cherry boards I couldn't even give them away anymore, and when I couldn't be bothered to desolder the switches anymore (after a thousand spares or so of blue and black each it gets a bit much, you know) I just didn't bother to take them along anymore - I quite literally had my hands full of better stuff. At one point I had an MX black board for every year between 1988 and 1999 IIRC. And now I'm getting so many modern Cherry boards (many of which I'm not allowed to review) that I'm starting to out-grow even The Wall.

You've mistakenly ASSUMED that I know nothing about Cherry switches and proceed to bullshit about me without even trying to find out how much I know about them. If you think having had dozens and dozens of these things still doesn't make me qualified, that's your opinion, but I dare say I'm more informed than most at least. So let's reverse the roles, shall we? How many Cherry boards have you had? What qualifications that you have make you so incredibly superior to me that you can proceed to shit-talk about me in public, repeatedly? Please tell me this in detail, I think I've suffered enough of your insults that I deserve that much at least.

The truth is, you just can't accept that I've tried all this stuff and STILL don't like them. Yes, there are differences between various decades of the switches, but in my opinion they don't hugely matter, because I think the design is INHERENTLY flawed. I've gone over why I think this is the case time and time again, even in great detail, such as in this video, and you somehow can't through your head that no matter what they did to the switches over the years, none of it fixed what I dislike about the switches. That's why I'm usually lumping them all together, because they all suffer from the same problems. It's like saying one computer doesn't work because of an electrical failure and the other one has no motherboard in it. They might be different, but they're BOTH BROKEN. I could've gone over the minute differences between all those boards, but I CHOSE not to, because it was frankly just not interesting, it's all the same crap to me, and I have much better ways to waste my time, and most definitely ways that interest me more.

I wish I'd like Cherry, because I've had way, WAY more Cherry boards than Alps ones. The difference is, Alps are in my opinion interesting and despite their flaws, a better design overall. I find them cool and satisfying to use, with a rich history, and a unique character. That makes them more worth going into detail about, especially because every avenue about Cherry has already been explored, basically - if I were to just give the standard Cherry pitch I wouldn't be any different from the dozens of generic, commercial reviewers that get a billion times more views than I do.

[need]

Why do people who knows better still watch reviews like these anyway... the only way to know how a keyboard/switch feels is to try it first hand. I'd rather spend 15min of my life doing better things

[purdobol]

Why do people who knows better still watch reviews like these anyway... the only way to know how a keyboard/switch feels is to try it first hand. I'd rather spend 15min of my life doing better things

Maybe it's the need of confirmation. I'm generalizing of course but more often than not, people do need some cushion after expensive purchase. And what better way to make sure the deal was good then watching youtube celebrity giving praise to it.

Lots of drama in this thread... love it!

[Wodan]

And this is my problem with your comments - you keep shit-talking about me without having ANY IDEA what you're talking about. You seem to be under the impression that the only keyboards I have and have had are the ones I've shown, whereas in reality I've had so many Cherry keyboards I couldn't even give you a correct multiple of ten. It's well in excess of a hundred, though.

You want me to compare 1988 vintage blacks to 2017 MX reds? Sure, I've had several of both. Or old and new MX clears? Sure, whatever. I've had so many Cherry boards I couldn't even give them away anymore, and when I couldn't be bothered to desolder the switches anymore (after a thousand spares or so of blue and black each it gets a bit much, you know) I just didn't bother to take them along anymore - I quite literally had my hands full of better stuff. At one point I had an MX black board for every year between 1988 and 1999 IIRC. And now I'm getting so many modern Cherry boards (many of which I'm not allowed to review) that I'm starting to out-grow even The Wall.

You've mistakenly ASSUMED that I know nothing about Cherry switches and proceed to bullshit about me without even trying to find out how much I know about them. If you think having had dozens and dozens of these things still doesn't make me qualified, that's your opinion, but I dare say I'm more informed than most at least. So let's reverse the roles, shall we? How many Cherry boards have you had? What qualifications that you have make you so incredibly superior to me that you can proceed to shit-talk about me in public, repeatedly? Please tell me this in detail, I think I've suffered enough of your insults that I deserve that much at least.

The truth is, you just can't accept that I've tried all this stuff and STILL don't like them. Yes, there are differences between various decades of the switches, but in my opinion they don't hugely matter, because I think the design is INHERENTLY flawed. I've gone over why I think this is the case time and time again, even in great detail, such as in this video, and you somehow can't through your head that no matter what they did to the switches over the years, none of it fixed what I dislike about the switches. That's why I'm usually lumping them all together, because they all suffer from the same problems. It's like saying one computer doesn't work because of an electrical failure and the other one has no motherboard in it. They might be different, but they're BOTH BROKEN. I could've gone over the minute differences between all those boards, but I CHOSE not to, because it was frankly just not interesting, it's all the same crap to me, and I have much better ways to waste my time, and most definitely ways that interest me more.

I wish I'd like Cherry, because I've had way, WAY more Cherry boards than Alps ones. The difference is, Alps are in my opinion interesting and despite their flaws, a better design overall. I find them cool and satisfying to use, with a rich history, and a unique character. That makes them more worth going into detail about, especially because every avenue about Cherry has already been explored, basically - if I were to just give the standard Cherry pitch I wouldn't be any different from the dozens of generic, commercial reviewers that get a billion times more views than I do.

Amazing one handed typing performance.

Maybe you got the wrong impression, I never challenged what board you have. I mean there is really no relation beween having many boards and being less ignorant obviously.

You're ignorance is what's bothering me. Ignoring the fact that we're looking at 30+ years of switches and instead trying to spit out snappy tag line verdicts that fit into a 140 character tweet. Well 280 characters now so you could probably even differentiate between MX browns and MX clears. You differentiate more between the various versions of Blue Alps that were made in a four year span than you differentiate between half a dozen of linear switches Cherry has made over a 35+ year span.

You're turning your dislike for Cherries into your "brand" and act like you're special because you have many boards and still shit on Cherry regardlesly. In order to get your message across and help communicate with a target group that has the attention span of an animated GIF, you then whip out hillarious claims like this:

More specifically, I think all types of Cherry MX switches are flawed, and in the areas that are most crucial to those types of switches, too:
-Linear Cherry switches are scratchy and badly weighted;
-Tactile Cherry switches are not tactile;
-Clicky Cherry switches are insufficiently tactile and the clicky sound is awful.

That's so disqualifying, I don't know why I did more than just quote this in my initial post. Sacrifice integrity for bullet point one liners! I lost hope that you will ever return to a point where we get an objective and differentiated look at various MX switches but that's just not as entertaining as playing the Anti-Cherry rebel.

So let's reverse the roles, shall we? How many Cherry boards have you had? What qualifications that you have make you so incredibly superior to me that you can proceed to shit-talk about me in public, repeatedly? Please tell me this in detail, I think I've suffered enough of your insults that I deserve that much at least.

LOL you don't get it at all ... chill, I am not saying I know anything better than you. I mean you obviously have more boards, how could I?

You're so in love with yourself that you really stopped giving ANY fucks about how ridiculous your claims are. Acting like "Cherry MX Switches" can generally be devastated by the half-god Chyros himself in three bullet points is just a little too much for me to take. Just put some more effort into it to show me you really HATE every Cherry switch type made in every year of production. That would really help me take your shit much better.

[Chyros]

LOL you don't get it at all ... chill, I am not saying I know anything better than you. I mean you obviously have more boards, how could I?

You're so in love with yourself that you really stopped giving ANY fucks about how ridiculous your claims are. Acting like "Cherry MX Switches" can generally be devastated by the half-god Chyros himself in three bullet points is just a little too much for me to take. Just put some more effort into it to show me you really HATE every Cherry switch type made in every year of production. That would really help me take your shit much better.

How many times do I need to keep saying the same thing over and over again? I DON'T hate Cherry switches, I just think other things are better! As always, you only see what you want to see and flat-out ignore everything else, or just warp in in your tiny little mind until it conforms to whatever you want it to be. If you honestly can't bear hearing ANY opinions but your own and go completely nutballs when someone disagrees with you (even if they don't really), why bother coming in here? Hell, why bother going outside, or even living? Just off yourself so you can keep telling yourself Cherry are amazeballs for all eternity without anyone challenging you.

Yes, I think the four years of blue Alps we've had are infinitely more interesting than the 35+ years of Cherry MX. Just like I think the 20th century is more interesting than all of the Stone Age. Sue me.

[Chyros]

You're ignorance is what's bothering me.

Btw, quoting this before the edit :p .

[deacon]

I guess a common thread is the difference between a hobbyist and whatever people think you (Chyros) are. Importantly this is distinct from whatever your intent is.

As a hobbyist, I've got my preferences and don't have to have a reason to explore anything outside of what pleases me.
So when I say clicky switches are obnoxious, staggered keyboards are dumb or stiffer springs are unpleasant to type on, nobody cares. Who the heck is this guy?

This can bite the hobbyist in the ass and writing off Alps style switches based on one Matias Quiet Click build was a personal example of that which I'm working on correcting.

The effect of me sharing these opinions is different than the effect of someone sharing their opinions on a Youtube channel. Your content shows you are aware of this I think but you might be underestimating the extent or just consider it somebody else's problem, which is fair I guess.

While a year by year audit of 35 years of Cherry switches seems a little asinine, to my recollection the Planck is different from anything you've reviewed before. Even the odd ergo and space saving keyboards had legends for the additional layers or quirky key placement and their intent is relatively quick adoption and use.

No Planck kit has ever come with the default firmware legends on the key caps. This is because it isn't really intended to be used that way. With so few keys the sub-legends would get plain silly. As such it is not a keyboard you can just plop down in front of even an experienced keyboard user like yourself. Like your "neck deep in Colemak" comment infers, there is a learning curve to using a Planck.

It isn't fair to expect you build out a Planck with Blue Alps, create your own keymap that suites your thumbless typing style and use it until you are proficient and then do a video review. However, this would have been more inline with how the majority of the Planck community uses these keyboards and a more reasonable review.

I wouldn't expect someone who only drove automatic automobile transmissions to give an unbiased review of a car with a manual one but a video compilation of grinding gear changes and smoking clutches might be an unfair representation.

Thank you,
D

[Chyros]

No Planck kit has ever come with the default firmware legends on the key caps. This is because it isn't really intended to be used that way. With so few keys the sub-legends would get plain silly. As such it is not a keyboard you can just plop down in front of even an experienced keyboard user like yourself. Like your "neck deep in Colemak" comment infers, there is a learning curve to using a Planck.

It isn't fair to expect you build out a Planck with Blue Alps, create your own keymap that suites your thumbless typing style and use it until you are proficient and then do a video review. However, this would have been more inline with how the majority of the Planck community uses these keyboards and a more reasonable review.

I wouldn't expect someone who only drove automatic automobile transmissions to give an unbiased review of a car with a manual one but a video compilation of grinding gear changes and smoking clutches might be an unfair representation.

Thank you,
D

Your reply makes me think you're taking the video WAY more seriously than I intended to be .

As I mentioned right near the start, this keyboard was designed for people who are the diametric opposite me, and I joked that therefore I'm the best person to judge this. I tried to make it clear that the review was going to be anything but unbiased, or even serious. I even did the review on bleeding helium ffs! :p

While the vast majority of people got a good laugh out of it, as it was intended to be (I got some really good feedback out of the video actually), some actual Planck or other 40% users took the video WAY too seriously and appear to have gotten actually offended by it. This was obviously never intended to be the case. I tried to make this review as tongue-in-cheek and obviously over-the-top unserious and lighthearted as I could, but still some people took it personally. Which is a shame.

[deacon]

Actually I'm just being paid to try to convert you to 40% keyboards so you'll sell "The Wall" cheap. I think somebody already has dibs on the Cherry section.

Seriously, I appreciate the time you've taken in this conversation Chyros. The "why can't you like what I like" backlash must get a little shrill and I tried not to come at the Planck stuff from that perspective.

[Sangdrax]

I knew I forgot something I always look forward to on a Saturday. Neat. It amazes me that some folks actually daily 40% like that. But then you'd have to pry F keys out of my cold dead hands. 75% is my favorite compact size.

[Chyros]

Actually I'm just being paid to try to convert you to 40% keyboards so you'll sell "The Wall" cheap. I think somebody already has dibs on the Cherry section.

Seriously, I appreciate the time you've taken in this conversation Chyros. The "why can't you like what I like" backlash must get a little shrill and I tried not to come at the Planck stuff from that perspective.

It's been a pleasure . Yes, sometimes people REALLY don't like it when you don't agree with their preferences xD .

[Elrick]

Yes, sometimes people REALLY don't like it when you don't agree with their preferences xD .

And that is why the internet is such a brilliant place to post on. Middle finger to everyone else but those who you respect and cherish.

Been my motto for more than 50 years now .

[Wodan]

Yes, I think the four years of blue Alps we've had are infinitely more interesting than the 35+ years of Cherry MX. Just like I think the 20th century is more interesting than all of the Stone Age. Sue me.

Damnit Cherry should have changed stem colours every few years to get your attention. But yeah, you might understand why I think your ignorant (since you've come to the point where you get excited about spelling/grammar mistakes)

How many times do I need to keep saying the same thing over and over again? I DON'T hate Cherry switches, I just think other things are better! As always, you only see what you want to see and flat-out ignore everything else, or just warp in in your tiny little mind until it conforms to whatever you want it to be. If you honestly can't bear hearing ANY opinions but your own and go completely nutballs when someone disagrees with you (even if they don't really), why bother coming in here? Hell, why bother going outside, or even living? Just off yourself so you can keep telling yourself Cherry are amazeballs for all eternity without anyone challenging you.

LOL ... go away go away ... you little cry baby.

I'm certainly not the guy that busts every switch discussion hammering his opinion of Cherry superiority. You're trying to make me look like that but I didn't really try to praise Cherry MX here. There is a lot of light and shadow in the history of Cherry switches.

My issue isn't your opinion, it's the senseless trash talking - against better knowledge - just to make some catchy statements. You're turning the Cherry trash talk into a brand even though you DO know better.

Look at you taking very nice and differentiated looks at various generations of Cherry MX Blacks:

And now look what that sounds like when you want to be a Cherry-MX rebel:

-Linear Cherry switches are scratchy and badly weighted;

Talk shit, get hit (verbally ...)

So stop victimizing yourself and take responsibility for your shit talk.

[Elrick]

Talk shit, get hit (verbally ...)

So stop victimizing yourself and take responsibility for your shit talk.

Hey wait on.... that looks like it wasn't aimed at me but I could be wrong here, like in most of my postings .

I have this need to constantly tyre-kick the Cherry Juggernaut, simple because it's the largest number of switches used on this planet after the common membrane keyboards.

But I have no negative opinion on their Greens, Clears or Silent Blacks, clearly very fave switches under my roof. Also the recently released Kaihua Kailh Box Switches which are to die for plus numerous MOD switches. There are a lot to like these days and I am glad to be living in these times.

[seebart]

Well seems there isn't much more to be said here... once again we witness the special chyros/wodan relationship which reminds me a bit of two other members that are both inactive now. Erick this is "out of your league"...

[kbdfr]

[…]

[…] My issue isn't your opinion, it's the senseless trash talking […] just to make some catchy statements. […]

I wouldn't have formulated this (rather drastic) way, but that happens to be my impression too, sorry

[Chyros]

[…]

[…] My issue isn't your opinion, it's the senseless trash talking […] just to make some catchy statements. […]

I wouldn't have formulated this (rather drastic) way, but that happens to be my impression too, sorry

I'm not going to needlessly quadruple-asterisk my statements every time I discuss Cherry switches just to please those who can't tolerate criticism, sorry. My reviews are already getting longer and longer, I don't need to waste more time mentioning what I've already covered in previous videos (and which is otherwise completely irrelevant to the video at hand) just because Wodan gets butt-hurt every time I compare his precious switches to something else in which of course they inevitably don't hold up, because they're shit. I don't make statements just to make them catchy, either. I can call it "poop on a stick" or just "shitty" but it all boils down to the same.

You'll notice I still had criticism of vintage MX blacks, as well, and although they kind of fix the smoothness issue, I still prefer other linear switches. What bothers you so much about a random dude on the internet having a different opinion from yours that you start a flame war at every opportunity is absolutely beyond me. Just chill out, dude! Don't watch my videos if they bother you so incredibly much!

[Wodan]

I didn't watch your video, I was following this discussion on DT. I don't even know what happened in the video and have been referring to your statements in this thread all along.

Maybe it's easier for you to make this about your video but it isn't. I've been quoting the part that has been bothering me the most countless times ...

Last time I was bothered by one of your videos is more than half a year ago when you did that questionable paid review of a 180$ Matias board, announced you will be doing professional keyboard reviews AND asked for community funding for better equipment for your recently-commercialized channel. It's the REALLY big chunks of shit I am having a hard time swallowing. It's a full time job to call you out on all your crap, can't do that ...

[kbdfr]

I wouldn't have formulated this (rather drastic) way, but that happens to be my impression too, sorry

I'm not going to needlessly quadruple-asterisk my statements every time I discuss Cherry switches just to please those who can't tolerate criticism, sorry. My reviews are already getting longer and longer, I don't need to waste more time mentioning what I've already covered in previous videos (and which is otherwise completely irrelevant to the video at hand) just because Wodan gets butt-hurt every time I compare his precious switches to something else in which of course they inevitably don't hold up, because they're shit. I don't make statements just to make them catchy, either. I can call it "poop on a stick" or just "shitty" but it all boils down to the same.

You'll notice I still had criticism of vintage MX blacks, as well, and although they kind of fix the smoothness issue, I still prefer other linear switches. What bothers you so much about a random dude on the internet having a different opinion from yours that you start a flame war at every opportunity is absolutely beyond me. Just chill out, dude! Don't watch my videos if they bother you so incredibly much!

Oh, I would't have expected such a long and passionate answer to my sober one-line statement.
Perhaps you should reflect on the contents of what is said instead of just flaming.

No need to answer, this is my last post in this thread.

[purdobol]

Really can't comprehend what's all the fuss about.
There's no such thing as objective reviews. And Chyros is very clear on his stance not only with Cherry switches but also Alps. To the point of stating that objectively CBS is better than Blue Alps but blues are still his favorite switch because reasons. He's also very clear about origins of the boards, partially donated, send for review or paid review. Which is the only honest way to approach this kind of stuff.

Moreso in this very thread he stated his arguments about why in his opinion Cherry switches are not that very well designed. On the other hand you Wodan did not provide any counter arguments as for why his opinion is invalid other than stating that Cherry has 35 years of history, and that not everything is black and white.

So as courtesy to Cherry noob here that only experience with those switches is vague memory of vintage blacks board. Can you go into detail about different periods of cherry switches, and state the differences between them?

[Starck]

So as courtesy to Cherry noob here that only experience with those switches is vague memory of vintage blacks board. Can you go into detail about different periods of cherry switches, and state the differences between them?

I hope he doesn't compare his beloved cherry switches to rubber dome. Because i like rubber dome, and it might hurt my feelings.

[Lustique]

[…] To the point of stating that objectively CBS is better than Blue Alps but blues are still his favorite switch because reasons. […]

That's pretty much the problem I have with the whole ‘affair’: How is one switch objectively better than some other switch? What does it mean if someone says that switch A has better tactility than switch B? What is ‘better tactility’? As far as I know, and I'd be happy to be corrected on this, pretty much the only thing you can objectively assess with a keyboard switch is its longevity, and in this regard, for example, Cherry switches would all be better than Alps switches. So what Chyros does when he says/writes things like ‘they're shit’, is that he states his opinions as facts. I have no problem with his opinions, but I dislike that he states those as facts, which they aren't.

[…] Moreso in this very thread he stated his arguments about why in his opinion Cherry switches are not that very well designed. […]

He didn't really, unless I overlooked that. What he did state is his opinions about the feeling of Cherry switches. That's also pretty much what my original question was aiming at, before I apparently started a minor shit show: Is there anything objectively/quantifiably/etc. wrong with Cherry switches? As Chyros seems to have some kind of technical background (considering, for example, his video about the IBM Selectric), I thought that there might be some kind of ‘engineering faux pas’ that I didn't know about, that Chyros would refer to in some way, but apparently that's not the case. So it's basically saying ‘they're shit’ instead of ‘I think they're shit’ or ‘in my opinion they're shit’ that grinds my gears, i.e. stating one's valid opinion as facts without anything to back that up except for ‘feeling’ and personal preference. Maybe that's ‘just semantics’ to him or you, but to me (and maybe Wodan and kbdfr?) it isn't.