Brexit: The DT Poll

[andrewjoy]

Let's look up the numbers. Oh, what a shocker, you're actually given more MEPs per head than we are.

Slovenia: population 2 million, elects 8 MEPs
Scotland: population 5 million, elects 6 MEPs

Man, that's some horrific underrepresentation you got there. Our tartan hearts bleed for ye!

Hey you get 6 MEPs , thats not bad for a large county council

[Muirium]

@Ad hoc:

Yes, England is huge. One of the biggest nations in Europe. Beside them, Scotland is an irrelevance. Which is one of the reasons I want independence. We're a total non entity, as England is a proud, unified and distinct nation which comprises a full 89% of the U.K. Extreme asymmetry does not serve federations well!

Andy's statement is pretty much how they think of us. A quaint regional afterthought. Pity we didn't have the media on our side when we had our much more important referendum two years ago. It was wall to wall NOOOOOOO!!!! 45%, including me and DT's poll on that occasion, said Fuck Off. But 55% voted stay, and so here we are, stuck in the shit, watching them shout about foreigners and leaving Europe.

Another stat.
Irish Republic: population 6 million, elects 11 MEPs

So much for "not bad".

[cookie]

@Mu well after the failed independency poll you could do it the Yugoslavian way and just screw everything over in a civil war? But beware, everything will ultimately turn into shit after it. Not that this is a real option but I just wan't to address how fucking stupid these warmongers were, and those who followed even more!

[scottc]

Another stat.
Irish Republic: population 6 million, elects 11 MEPs

So much for "not bad".

Ah yeah, and Luke "Ming" Flanagan, the politician named after a Flash Gordon baddie, is one of those eleven.



What a guy...

[andrewjoy]

You know i am only joking Mµ , we have to keep that whole Scot , Englishman thing alive for the tourists!

Honestly everywhere apart form London and the south of England should have just left and formed a new country, fuck them southern tory twats!

Honestly for the rest of the UK it would be fine if you went your own way, apart form the fact that without you we would have a tory government until the end of time!

The only think i disliked about the whole independent Scotland thing was some elements of the SNP at the time that wanted to eat there cake and still have it , becoming independent but still having our currency and taking money from the UK.

[kbdfr]

You don't have other than Slovenian sources
A Google search with Slovenia "tap water" Nestlé gave no result coherent with your assertions.
So as a last resort please provide Slovenian links, Google Translate should at least help finding out what it's all about.
To be honest, I think what you wrote is a gross misrepresentation (not necessarily by yourself) of actual facts.
Like in the case of those alleged "reeducation camps for conspiracy theorists"

How can you be so oblivious to a basic human right such as drinkable water?!?! I thought no extra sources were necessary [on water privatization, not specific to Slovenia], Nestle has started pushing AGAINST public drinkable water in 2000! England has fully privatized drinkable water, as has some parts of Germany and other Europe. They wanted to push the same privatization plans on all smaller countries as well, for example Italy vetoed against it in 2011 (well, Italy sprang to mind, they're not really a small country).

I can give you a million links, but surely you can use Google or? Watch the documentary "Catastroika", where the research on the connections between Germany's government and private sector lusts tied together - the Germany government was disbanded because of it, if I remember correctly (it's been a while).

Do you read my postings at all?
"I ask for a link because on Google I have found nothing about what you're saying, and all you do is answer "I can give you a million links, but surely you can use Google or?" and accuse me of being "oblivious to a basic human right such as drinkable water?!?!".
What a bullshit! Here in Berlin we had a petition (which I signed) to force the local government to publish secret contracts concerning privatization of the water supply. So I'm asking because the matter is of interest to me - and Google was of no help.

You wrote:

[…] Some of us still remember when you tried to force yourself into privatizing drinkable tap water (*shock* some of us still have it) to sell us out to corporations like Nestle - and by extent create monopoly, which in turn had direct funding for your government. […]

Again, I am interestet in the facts - so help me finding them or stop asserting things and refusing to provide any evidence.

[seebart]

Nestle has started pushing AGAINST public drinkable water in 2000! England has fully privatized drinkable water, as has some parts of Germany...

Really? What parts of Germany?

[Halvar]

Berlin has privatized their public water supply, which turned out to be the worst idea ever of course. IMO everyone who thinks this is a good idea must either be corrupt or out of their mind.

Not surprisingly, the Troika also made Greece privatize their water supply system.

[seebart]

OK I did not know that. Goes to show how much follow the news.

[Muirium]

To be honest, water privatization has not gone so badly in Scotland. Yes, it was forced on us donkeys years ago by the English, while our MPs duly voted against, quite ceremonially and pointlessly. There's still some murmuring about renationalizing it, amongst the lefties. But it's not a priority. The roads are in much worse shape, and those belong to the local councils.

Mind, Scotland is a tremendously wet place. Water supply is to Scotland what organizing a piss-up is inside a brewery.


@Andy.
I know you're kidding. Trouble is, it's all quite true. That's why we have that devolved parliament (twenty years after voting for it in 1979, thanks Westminister…). Most everything that comes out of the U.K. Parliament does so against Scotland's votes in the chamber. If we were just more like you lot, there wouldn't be a problem.

[adhoc]

Well it's not that the EU was forcing the less developed countries to join afaik.
Most countries apply for joining the EU for the benefit of an open market, they blindly thought they will ultimately gain relevance and improve their economic situation and therefore reduce unemployment rates and such. At the end smaller countries fail in competing against the bigger, more advanced and industrialized countries. I mean they can place their products in the rest of EU and vice versa.

When I am on vacation in Croatia I often see regional products get displaced by the well known big brands from Germany which are cheaper/better/more advanced. From a small fish perspective I see no real benefit in being part of the EU because they can't compete with the bigger ones instead they make them highly dependent of the leading countries. It is capitalism on a more global level.

But to get on topic, I think that UK is in a good spot and I'd probably stay in the EU.
The rest, well not so much.

While I'd say it would be illusionary to expect a small country like Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia to be even remotely competitive to Germany (Norway has oil, Switzerland...well, you know , Sweden made big bucks on wood afaik, while we have nothing of the sort), there's definitely some truth to your post as well. See, the business mentality here is terrible and is decades behind that of Germans & co. So, there's some fault on things out of our reach, but there's also some fault on our own.

Again, I am interestet in the facts - so help me finding them or stop asserting things and refusing to provide any evidence.

It's funny how you keep saying this topic is so important to you, but Berlin, your home town (?) is actually the only city in Germany that has privatized water supply to some extent - and you don't even know about it!

Try googling "water privatization" and click the first link.

For thorough research into the matter, I gave you a documentary you can watch. Watch the documentary, it's well explained, they also explain and point out the connections between the private sector and German government at the time.

Nestle has started pushing AGAINST public drinkable water in 2000! England has fully privatized drinkable water, as has some parts of Germany...

Really? What parts of Germany?

Berlin.

Berlin has privatized their public water supply, which turned out to be the worst idea ever of course. IMO everyone who thinks this is a good idea must either be corrupt or out of their mind.

Not surprisingly, the Troika also made Greece privatize their water supply system.

^- what he said. They wanted to rape us as well, but we somehow managed to weasel out of it.

To be honest, water privatization has not gone so badly in Scotland.

I'm not sure about Scotland specifically, but the UK is the example on which privatization of public-funded goods such as trainways, water supply, etc. was catastrophic! Both in terms of costs privatization made and terrible management.

I'm sorry for your independence vote. I rooted for you, if it means anything?

[fohat]

the example on which privatization of public-funded goods such as trainways, water supply, etc. was catastrophic!

Privatization of just about anything that exists to serve the public good is catastrophic.

There are numerous US states where Republican-controlled legislatures have even contracted their prison systems out to political cronies, along with guarantees that they would remain filled to specific capacities!

[kbdfr]

Again, I am interestet in the facts - so help me finding them or stop asserting things and refusing to provide any evidence.

It's funny how you keep saying this topic is so important to you, but Berlin, your home town (?) is actually the only city in Germany that has privatized water supply to some extent - and you don't even know about it! […]

First I thought you didn't really read my posts, now I think you do but purposely lie in your answers.
Your answer just doesn't match what I had posted, does it?

[…] Here in Berlin we had a petition (which I signed) to force the local government to publish secret contracts concerning privatization of the water supply. […]

----------

In the same vein, you first say:

England has fully privatized drinkable water, as has some parts of Germany […]

And then:

[…] Berlin […] is actually the only city in Germany that has privatized water supply to some extent […]

Berlin has not "fully privatized" water supply, but entered a public-private partnership under secret contracts which the "Wassertisch" initiative seeked to force the publication of - which of course I am well aware of, as my post indicated without the slightest possible doubt.

----------

In other words, like shown for that Russian site speaking of reeducation camps which conspiracy theorists would allegedly be forced to attend where a text simply proposes rehabilitation programmes for juveniles condemned for hate crimes,
you just don't state facts, but distort them along with others' posts.

Wrong basis for a discussion.

[jacobolus]

kbdfr: Don't worry. Everything ultimately flows from America forcing Europe into WW II so we could convince y'all to buy our military hardware, and then profit from rebuilding your continent while having no industrial competition, all the while cackling gleefully at the millions of deaths. Hitler, Stalin, and Churchill were probably all CIA plants, nevermind that the CIA didn’t yet exist.

[adhoc]

You're right! Out of the 10000 words I've written, one of them was used wrongfully, so clearly EU is perfect.

(Nevermind that the Germans bought out our publically funded water management system, which shouldn't be possible to be sold to begin with, and jacked the prices up by exactly 460% in just mere 6 months! - but it's ok, because clearly it doesn't exist, since the news are only in Slovenian...a country so important like Slovenia, surely news would be all over in all languages of the world, right?!)

Once great empires realised, that owning the land of the countries you want to conquer is pointless, as it incurs costs and leads to revolts. Better beat them into financial submission, nickel and dime them, then tell them how happy they can be to have you.

Want to leave? Tough shit, privatization & co. is still valid. Besides, that's xenophobia, nationalism and racism, for which extra penalties apply.
"We never forced you to join" - but we would penalize you financially into a third world shithole if you hadn't.

Discussing this with a German is of course pointless. Of course. Your standard is the way it is because of breaking backs of the smaller ones (not entirely, but to an extent). You enjoy the privilege, why would you see anything against it - there's no reason to do so.

And america in WW2...oh man, this shit again. A country buys it's way into super power status, enslaves the entire world in their own currency, fighting against racism - although racism was second name of America prior to WW2, selling long term loans on the back of deaths of Europeans, ... there's just so much wrong with all of this, I'm dumbfounded y'all can support the shit your government pulls off. I wouldn't say you're at fault for it, but supporting it?

[jacobolus]

adhoc: as a slave, shouldn’t you be out there in the fields doing some work before the overseer beats you, instead of making whiny comments on the internet?

[adhoc]

adhoc: as a slave, shouldn’t you be out there in the fields doing some work before the overseer beats you, instead of making whiny comments on the internet?

Haha, well no, you know that kind of enslaving would bring revolts. Can't have that now. Truth is, the situation isn't quite as bad. Again, just in case someone forgot...I have a feeling some people take it personally.

I have nothing against Americans, Germans or anyone else, and I especially have nothing against any one deskthority member.

[seebart]

...I have nothing against Americans, Germans or anyone else, and I especially have nothing against any one deskthority member.

You mean you do not hold a grudge against...

just one deskthority member?

And what about the other 10140 ?!?

[adhoc]

Hate 'em all!

Haha, you know what I meant ;p

[seebart]

OK you don't mean that anyway this thread has gone crazy offtopicthority from Brexit to German water privatization. Normal I guess.

[adhoc]

Perfectly normal, all in a days work!

I always envisioned Europe as all countries working together, towards a common goal. Free speech, trusting their citizens they will be beyond nationalism and hatred without government involvement. Pushing together, not pulling apart. Not trying to rip each other off, etc.

It turned out not that at all. At first problem the schengen zone fell apart like a house of cards, for example. Now we have some countries going full nationalism, most countries building walls around borders (again), some countries threatening others with various semi-democratic levers and others wanting to leave the EU. Germany arresting their citizens for critisizing their government o.O

Oh well, maybe I was just naive.

[seebart]

The EU model is not contemporary and needs to be updated to a new situation IMO. Also since we have so many partners the negotiations are tedious and like we all know a few countries pay the most and decide the most which is also problematic.

Remember the basic model for the EU is from the 1950's!

[adhoc]

Right!

Maybe it's a bit unfair, because all eyes are looking at Germany and it's far easier to give critique than solutions, but EU isn't adaptable enough or at least it doesn't adapt fast enough to the situations that pop up.

[cookie]

While I'd say it would be illusionary to expect a small country like Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia to be even remotely competitive to Germany (Norway has oil, Switzerland...well, you know , Sweden made big bucks on wood afaik, while we have nothing of the sort), there's definitely some truth to your post as well. See, the business mentality here is terrible and is decades behind that of Germans & co. So, there's some fault on things out of our reach, but there's also some fault on our own.

I agree on taht one, I can't speak for the business mentality in Slovenia though but it seems you guys are in a very nice shape! From what I here in Croatia, low income people (which is the majority) fight every day to survive and working morale is mediocre I'd say, but the country is clean and they take good care over all. Bosnia, where most of my family lives (Republic of Srpksa) is big pile of fucking corrupt garbage. This Guantanamo Bay of a country is the worst of the worst... You can't establish business because of corrupt politician which will screw you in every possible way if you don't overpay those greedy asswhips. Pay Morale is fucking pathetic, people start to build shit and refuse to pay. The blame-game is so ridiculously strong among the population it's outrageous! It's either the war or the flood or the goverment sometimes the weather. Look how advanced germany became 21 years after WW2 compared to that they've just discovered fire! And what pisses me off the most is the trash, it is everywhere, it is so hideously dirty all over the place. There is some extremely beautiful nature, something worth to take care of and to keep nice and clean and these illiterate peasants throw garbage everywhere.

Nobody has a job and no cash but neither they starve. Ohh boy if a wedding is to be waited, then you hear the piggy banks scream in fear! Everybody is drowning in self-pitty and refuses to pay for the most essential things like garbage collection, taxes, heath care (list goes on...). They'd rather have their booze and tons of cigarettes everyday instead of something proper to eat and a clean environment.

If the EU is sane, they should never let those fellas join it.

Sincerely apologies for the rant (this is bothering me for a loooong time) but what I am trying to say is that the EU may have its downsides but I think that all in all it's beneficial for everyone to be united and strong.
The UK might end up very isolated outside of the EU even more than already. The real question is though, how will the European internal market react to UK leaving. This could affect their export and therefore their economy.

[kbdfr]

[…] Now we have […] Germany arresting their citizens for critisizing their government o.O

I'm curious what your source might be for that.

[Muirium]

Everyone's favourite:

Spoiler:

[adhoc]

Wow, google sure is hard to use.

I'm looking forward to your new excuses why the sources are not valid!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... story.html

http://www.infowars.com/germany-orders- ... dia-posts/

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/12/1 ... migration/

Facebook, Twitter, Google Collude With German Government To Censor Discussion On Immigration

German authorities, meanwhile, have reached a deal with Facebook, Google and Twitter to get tougher on offensive content, with the outlets agreeing to apply domestic laws, rather than their own corporate policies, to reviews of posts.

If you need more links let me know. I have no problems using Google.

[Muirium]

The odds are creeping back away from snoozeville:



"The meedja", meanwhile, are acting as though Leave are the favorites this week. Bollocks! Leave is simply the media's favourite. What self respecting journalist doesn't enjoy a trainwreck?

As for me, I'm not necessarily anti-trainwreck. Not if the consequences get interesting…

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... tes-remain

Still expect a comfortable Remain victory though. Referendums almost always swing back to the status quo at the end. Leave doesn't have a consistent lead at all, let alone one that can handle last minute doubt.

http://politicscounter.com/?p=77

[jacobolus]

adhoc: Your links aren’t about people criticizing the government, they’re about hate speech and death threats. Germany has strict laws about hate speech, for obvious historical reasons. If you disagree with those laws, you should criticize them on the level, instead of pretending this is something about silencing government critics.

(Personally, I think European countries’ approaches to freedom of speech are problematic, and I’m glad we have stricter guarantees in the US, even if it sometimes lets neo-nazis rant at each other from soapboxes, and usually lets people get away with slander. But as an American, I don’t feel it’s my place to tell other democratic countries what kind of civil rights they should have.)

When literally every statement you make is an out-of-context exaggeration expressed as a conspiracy theory, it’s hard to have a serious conversation.

[andrewjoy]

The german laws are a bit harsh in my view , banning certain symbols even from textbooks and historic educational videos and films and so on.

I totally get why , it just always reminds me of the quote. "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I know thats a bit far fetched but every slippery slope starts with a single step.