Trump v Clinton: who do you support?

[andrewjoy]

Trump is dancing a fine line between just being a fascist† who makes bigoted statements full of violent metaphors about women/nonwhites/religious minorities, and actively inciting violence against those groups. He clearly wants the support of white nationalists, and they’re having a great party with his candidacy. But he can’t come right out and say that the Nazis and KKK were heroes.

His whole campaign revolves around what Josh Marshall used to call the “bitch slap theory of politics”, http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the ... r-violence http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the ... f-the-will

By the way, he decided not to cover the rally attacker’s legal bills after all, after getting a bunch of flak about it.

† Or maybe “belligerent nativist populist authoritarian strongman” if you want to mince words.

I don't support trump or many of his ideas but why is someone with his view instantly labeled as a facist ? For example his " no muslims policy " this is stupid yes but it is based on a valid point that the ideology itself in inherently violent and its views have no place in the developed world. The treatment of women in islam for example is horrible ( yet most modern feminists are quite happy to ignore it and worry about a photo of someones ass but i digress) but this is almost never addressed its just any criticism of it = racism ( but how you can be racist against a religion i don't know).

And where the gender violence angle came from i don't know.

Why people don't just address his points in a valid way i don't know hell he talks lots of shit so it would be like shooting fish in a barrel, that for me would be more powerful than calling him x y and z. Its the same with the whole brexit thing ( UK EU exit vote) , nobody comes up with data ( on ether side ) its all just shouting and fear mongering.

[jacobolus]

He’s almost a textbook example of a Fascist, in the classic Italian Mussolini tradition...

Here’s Robert Paxton’s summary, via Wikipedia: Fascism is “a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.”

The term obviously has a lot of baggage, and so might not be the most useful. There are obviously some features of Trumpism which wouldn’t precisely fit in the context of 1920s Italy, and vice versa. In broad strokes, it’s a very similar set of political ideals and a similar conception of the proper scope and form of politics.

[andrewjoy]

He’s almost a textbook example of a Fascist, in the classic Italian Mussolini tradition...

Here’s Robert Paxton’s summary, via Wikipedia: Fascism is “a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.”

I would agree with that definition , but i don't see how it applies to him.

If we have to label him anything i would go with dickhead , twat or cunt .

[jacobolus]

Well fair enough. As I said, I’m reasonably satisfied with “proudly ignorant belligerent nativist populist authoritarian strongman” as an alternative label.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... hs_in.html

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/3/15/f ... nald_trump
http://www.democracynow.org/2016/3/15/i ... scist_part

http://billmoyers.com/story/trump-the-american-fascist/

[seebart]

I think a lot of has to do with Trumps outspoken brisk style which actually got him where he is now which is leading the polls and all the other republicans out of the way. He tells a lot of voters what they want to hear how they want to hear it without the actual solutions or even approach to a solution. I'm not even sure he's a fascist, he's "friends" with poeple like Mike Tyson. I don't think he could have managed his business in the last 30-40 years as a real fascist. But he is an extremist in his own way. Even if he get's elected and goes to the white house he won't be running the USA by himself. We'll see how many of his ideas then hold up in reality. No too many I'd say.

[fohat]

this is stupid yes but it is based on a valid point that the ideology itself in inherently violent and its views have no place in the developed world.

Andrew, the more I read your comments the more flummoxed I become. I must be missing some aspect of what you are trying to say.

You seem to understand that the entire Trump phenomenon is an epic disaster, yet you consistently refuse to denounce him and his followers.

[Muirium]

It's because Bernie Bros are now having to stare at their man's defeat, in the face. Some of them hate Hillary with a deeper passion than they do Trump. So it's time to tippy toe right across the spectrum and join the devil!

[andrewjoy]

this is stupid yes but it is based on a valid point that the ideology itself in inherently violent and its views have no place in the developed world.

Andrew, the more I read your comments the more flummoxed I become. I must be missing some aspect of what you are trying to say.

You seem to understand that the entire Trump phenomenon is an epic disaster, yet you consistently refuse to denounce him and his followers.

It is an epic disaster, but everyone just denouncing him and his follows as facist or whatever else is not constructive , if you don't like something he says offer evidence and an alternative not just shouting.

And i am not a fan of this whole bernie bros phrase , so what only men support him ? Whats wrong with supporting the only true liberal in the race ?

[fohat]

Some of them hate Hillary with a deeper passion than they do Trump.
So it's time to tippy toe right across the spectrum and join the devil!

I just don't see that. Hillary is ugly and deeply tainted, but she is not inherently evil and she gets the "little stuff" right.

80%-90% of Bernie's supporters will come around and vote for the lesser of the evils, and most of the rest will stay home.

[andrewjoy]

Some of them hate Hillary with a deeper passion than they do Trump.
So it's time to tippy toe right across the spectrum and join the devil!

I just don't see that. Hillary is ugly and deeply tainted, but she is not inherently evil and she gets the "little stuff" right.

80%-90% of Bernie's supporters will come around and vote for the lesser of the evils, and most of the rest will stay home.

The problem is , they are both terrible , i mean come on america out of the 319million people that live in the US they where the best two you could come up with ?

[Muirium]

Um, England last year: David "fucking a dead pig's face" Cameron vs Edstone Miliband!

I'd vote Hillary over either of those two. In the event, I went with Nicola Sturgeon, arguably Scotland's own. Not that we get to decide your elections, dear overlords.

[andrewjoy]

Hey did i say we where any better ?

[photekq]

Edstone Milibamd!

I think you need to put aside the rhetoric, Mu.

[fohat]

but everyone just denouncing him and his follows as facist or whatever else is not constructive,
if you don't like something he says offer evidence and an alternative not just shouting.

"something he says" - now that is the problem. It would probably sound flip to say that I have never heard a single substantive word that he has said that I don't not like*, but there is precious little that he says that is substantive.

From where I sit, at least 2/3 of what he says is vague mindless platitudes, appealing mostly to the negative emotions of ignorant people, and the rest is his impossible boasts or promises that are either patently false or based on morally wrongful or illegal premises.

edit - * Except that he has made a few tentative noises that tax cuts to the wealthy need to be re-visited.

[Muirium]

Shh! Don't go making Andy's epic waltz across the aisle any more awkward for him. Wasn't it Redmaus who was saying the same stuff way back in this (or some equivalent) thread? Leave the Donut's wig alone. The burden of proooove is on you guys!

Anyway, Andy's just treading the same path as many of his countrymen. From Labour to 'Kipper. They'll be the Tories cute little incompetent opposition someday. Free from all the dreadful baggage about respecting Muslims.

[andrewjoy]

who are Kipper ?

I assume you mean UKIP ?

I am sorry but i am offended .

[Muirium]

Give it time, Nige. Their open hostility to migration, especially "ethnics", surely appeals to a certain part of you? I remember the Paris thread…

As a Scot, I can't tell a single cultural difference between the Kippers and the Tories. But they're not for us Jocks. Millions of Englishmen voted for the buggers last year, in many Labour strongholds. They're the force the liberal lefties running the party with Jezza now ought to be shiteing masonry about. If only they had a clue what working class people feel and think!

[photekq]

I can't tell a single cultural difference between the Kippers and the Tories.

That's not because you're Scottish. It's because UKIP has become a second Conservative party in effect. The only real differences are that UKIP has a more sensible military policy (in that they don't want to commission a new squadron of jets and then gift them to America for a fraction of what we paid as soon as they get built) and they want to leave the EU. Our Nige has let his party slip into the hands of the opposition. Just look at Douglas Carswell. He's their only bloody MP and he isn't a proper Kipper!

[Muirium]

I must admit, in spite of myself, I quite like Carswell. He spins a fine yarn about British imperial majesty, and he's the spitting image of Quentin Tarantino playing a baddie, in some photos at least. He's in my political bad boy softspot along with the troublesome Gove.

Meanwhile, Ukip's only elected politician in Scotland (not that he lives here or even sounds like he did for long) is a total arse. David Coburn slipped into Brussels in last place in the euro election some years ago when nobody but the blue rinsers voted. Ugh. Glad he failed to get into Holyrood in the recent election. Bastard would be up in the BA shuttle every morning from his club!

[andrewjoy]

Give it time, Nige. Their open hostility to migration, especially "ethnics", surely appeals to a certain part of you? I remember the Paris thread…

I am not hostile to migration, i work for an organisation that has people from all over the world in the office and its amazing meeting and working with people. I also agree with the freedom of movement across europe.

What i am hostile to is people who want to come who think its perfectly fine to kill someone if they decide they no longer want to follow there batshit insane religion and people who have no problem with mutilating the genitals of young girls because some ancient book told them to. Or to shoot unarmed civilians in the face with an assault weapon.

Everyone is welcome , but leave your bronze age superstitions and insane religion at the door.



I think i am not very cleat when putting my points across because you people do have some funny ideas about me, i guest that my failing.

[Muirium]

I'm part winding you up, Andy, but the other part is serious. Most Muslims don't machine gun concert audiences in the face. Treating them all the same way is no way for us, the majority with our inherent privilege and power, to behave. Slagging off dusty old books may seem a harmless game to you, but to many people that's the Crown Jewels of their culture and identity. Even the vast majority of them who don't nip off to bloody Syria determined to make it all real!

Trouble is, there's no simple answers to the big questions in life. Only demagogues preaching artificial answers to their followers, hinting at worse to come. Extremism the enemy. Trump included.

[andrewjoy]

I'm part winding you up, Andy, but the other part is serious. Most Muslims don't machine gun concert audiences in the face. Treating them all the same way is no way for us, the majority with our inherent privilege and power, to behave. Slagging off dusty old books may seem a harmless game to you, but to many people that's the Crown Jewels of their culture and identity. Even the vast majority of them who don't nip off to bloody Syria!

But the majority of the attacks in the western world at the moment are instigated by people who follow islam , of corse many many muslims would not even consider hurting anyone, but to say its just a few bad apples is also wrong. The ideology itself is not compatible with western values, nether was christianity but that at least for the most part it cleaned up its act.

I am against the ideology, thats whats at fault, the person choses to follow it ( or is forced to in many cases), that person in 99% of cases is a normal caring friendly person , but group mentality is a very strong force.

I hate to invoke godwins law, but look at Germany leading up to and during the second world war, it was an educated developed christian country, yet the right ideology pushing the right phycological buttons made normal people like me or you quite happy to take 100s of felow human beings into a room and then gas them all. Again the people where just normal people like you or me and an ideology can make them do something this terrible, its the same thing with ( any) religion, push the right buttons and you can get anyone to do almost anything.

[Muirium]

And that's why Trump is so potentially dangerous. He uses the same old playbook. We are a special people, uniquely noble in this world, surrounded by our enemies who want our riches, many of them live among us, they are the cause of all our problems, we were once mighty, they brought us down, we have been sleepwalking into our own graves, something must be done!

Marching boots…

[andrewjoy]

And that's why Trump is so potentially dangerous. He uses the same old playbook. We are a special people, uniquely noble in this world, surrounded by our enemies who want our riches, many of them live among us, they are the cause of all our problems, we were once mighty, they brought us down, we have been sleepwalking into our own graves, something must be done!

Marching boots…

Exactly my point , people just calling him x y and z will only re-enforce that. Thats why we need to fight him with numbers and logic.

[Muirium]

When did numbers and logic ever win a political argument?

They work in wars. (Der Trumpenführer was an abysmal strategist. Don't attack Russia while you've still a western front you bloody fool!) But not because they change people's minds. Far from it. They kill them, with gunfire and bombs. Especially the nuclear kind, a triumph of numbers indeed.

[photekq]

Thats why we need to fight him with numbers and logic.

Sorry, you're on the wrong side of the pond for that. You'll just have to spectate and see what happens.

[Muirium]

Chillax, fellas. Most Americans have no say whatsofuckingever in this either. It's all down to the good God fearing folks of Ohio in November. Try not to worry too hard about it. You don't count anyway!

[seebart]

The problem is , they are both terrible , i mean come on america out of the 319million people that live in the US they where the best two you could come up with ?

That's unfair, no one "came up" with these individuals. Just like Austria did not "come up" with Hitler and send him to Germany to fuck the world up. Psycho did that all by himself. I know quite a few Americans from my time in the US, I happen to know most of them are quite unhappy to say the least with any of these three remaining candidates. Tough shit.

[Muirium]

The trouble with politics is politicians. And vice versa. Anyone attracted to that field tends to be bad news. But cram anyone else into it, and their soul won't last for long.

[andrewjoy]

We need to start that brexit thread , because shit like this is just hilarious http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36378655