Trump v Clinton: who do you support?

How would you vote if you could vote?

Vote enthusiastically for Trump
12
14%
Vote enthusiastically for Clinton
8
9%
Vote for Trump because you despise Clinton
12
14%
Vote for Clinton because you despise Trump
19
22%
Refuse to vote because you despise them both
30
34%
Undecided
6
7%
 
Total votes: 87

jacobolus

14 May 2016, 06:36

Kurplop wrote: you and fohat is that you share, what appears to be, an absolute and immutable conviction that your answers to these issues are the only possible remedy.
Definitely not. Indeed, I’m not even providing “answers” about much in this thread, only a few comments about policies that I think are clearly failing, and some ideas that seem obviously bad. For example, I think a comprehensive immigration reform bill will probably run to thousands of pages, offend basically everyone in some way or another, and require a protracted political fight to pass. It will probably perpetuate some injustices while ameliorating others. Trump’s off-hand proposals of a giant border wall and whole-sale deportation of 11 million people without regard for any existing legal process, however, are just patently ridiculous.

Crafting successful new laws is difficult and takes a lot of organizing effort. You need some kind of institution to enact or enforce any kind of regulation, which means you either need to add the job to an existing institution or create a new one. Sometimes you need to break down existing institutions or businesses in the process of changing the law. This takes time, political savvy, and sometimes some unpleasant compromises. In cases where the folks being regulated strongly disagree with the new policy, it sometimes requires a painful political/legal fight. It also takes a willingness to gather data, learn from experience, and try to make corrections when things don’t work out.

Unfortunately, a lot of our policies are directed by “optics” and marketing and feed off people’s fears, rather than reasoning.

I’m all for trusting people’s good intentions, but there’s a lot of recent politics that seems to be done transparently in bad faith. The mid-90s focus on Bill Clinton’s sex life (by a bunch of congressmen who had their own extramarital affairs, abuse scandals, etc.) or the Obama “birther” movement are easy examples. But the phony justifications for the Iraq war, the clearly impossible proposed budget numbers by supposedly serious/technocratic politicians, the climate science denialism, etc., are ultimately even more damaging.

Even if we suppose for the sake of argument that GOP politicians have totally pure intentions, when they are forced to spend approximately all of their time scurrying about collecting campaign contributions, their constituents are all being fed an information diet of lies and distortions by Fox News and right-wing talk radio, and they are under constant primary challenge from the “Tea Party” right, it’s pretty difficult for them to act responsibly.
Our nation need to heal from the wounds of division which haven't been this severe since the Civil War. Unfortunately, neither front runner seem to have the stuff to "bind up the nation's wounds".
I’m not sure that’s accurate. From what I can tell (as someone born in the mid-1980s), people have been plenty divided and angry pretty much continuously, with pretty strong sharp divisions during the gilded age, the great depression, the social movements of the 1960s, the end of the Bush 43 presidency, etc. There’s a lot of bluster today, and the congress has decided on do-nothing obstructionism and threats (e.g. the debt limit brinksmanship, government shutdowns, not voting on political appointee nominations, etc.) as a primary strategy, but there’s mostly still basic government legitimacy, rule of law, orderly power transitions, a reasonably free (albeit corporatized) press, lack of general strikes or large-scale rioting, etc. I guess we’ll see how it goes in the next decade or two.

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Muirium
µ

14 May 2016, 11:33

Kurplop wrote: Life's experiences have taught me the importance of compromise, the uncertainty of outcomes of even our best made plans and the value of seeking out opposing opinions with an ear to learn.
Well put! This is where I find myself in politics. My ideals are pretty extreme (according to every hokey politics quiz) but my alignment is not. I can have a civil conversation with conservatives, even when we disagree on most everything. I know where they're coming from. No one gets into politics for the moustache twirling, pinkie to the lips, sheer evil of it. Despite the fact it's so tempting to paint our opponents that way! They simply emphasise and value different things. Wrong things, perhaps, but ours may be too.
Kurplop wrote: Our nation need to heal from the wounds of division which haven't been this severe since the Civil War. Unfortunately, neither front runner seem to have the stuff to "bind up the nation's wounds".
I sincerely doubt such a person presently exists. The media, and indeed the social media, is simply too fractious. Everyone is either with us or against us. The division America is torn by is long in the making, and social institutions assume it as the bedrock of their environment.

Glad you mentioned the Civil War. Because, yes, this split is comparable to what drove Americans apart back then. Looking at a political map, it looks a lot like that same battle, which in some sense never truly ended.

Image
Image

How do you unite all that?

Kurplop

14 May 2016, 14:05

Jacobolus—

Thanks for the measured response. I think that our exchange is bringing us into a better understanding of one another rather than polarizing us and that's a good start.

I might just be getting overly cautious in my old age with how I use and interpret words. I am particularly sensitive to absolute statements, the overuse of superlatives, and hyperbole that is disguised as fact. Unfortunately, that is what much of political talk consists of. I know that it is dangerous for me to throw grammatical stones given my limited formal education. My own speech and writings are riddled with poor syntax and bad punctuation but I haven't taken an English class since 10th grade (C-), and rarely wrote more than 2 consecutive sentences together between then and my mid fifties.

I still think that you are unaware of your strong biases, i.e. your condemnation of GOP politicians for being "forced to spend approximately all of their time scurrying about collecting campaign contributions, their constituents are all being fed an information diet of lies and distortions by Fox News and right-wing talk radio, and they are under constant primary challenge from the “Tea Party” right, it’s pretty difficult for them to act responsibly." I agree with your statement but would add that MSNBC, left wing radio, and groups such as Black Lives Matters pretty well even the playing field and that fundraising is epidemic on both sides. Perhaps we would all do well to "remove the log from our own eyes first".

I was guilty of being overly critical of Bill Clinton during his terms in office and I deeply regret it. I probably realized it when I saw the tables turned and the same attacks were directed at Bush Jr.. I decided then to try to be more charitable about our leader's motives and only challenge their actions and judgements. I hope other will attempt the same.

Muirium—

Thanks. It's nice to find common ground in spite of ideological differences. Interesting map comparison; all the more need for us to try to put unity above absolute ideology.

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fohat
Elder Messenger

14 May 2016, 15:14

If you consider my observations to be "cheesy" then I am disappointed to realize that you have not considered them below the most superficial level (and they certainly seem less "cheesy" to me than your immigrant/burglar metaphor). To expand:

Like Jacobolus, I believe that "the Right" whatever that is, has made a powerful, concerted, unified, and coordinated effort to achieve its goals beginning with its election of Reagan and reaching fruition with Gingrich and his demands for absolute blind obedience in Congress. They have succeeded beyond anyone's expectations, and taken and held near-complete control of the majority of the various governments of this country, for decades, from the local level to the top.

Not that struggles of this type have not been playing since the Revolution, but it is interesting to see the twists and turns. The Federalists, and Hamilton in particular, wanted an extremely strong Federal government (what today's "right" complains about today's "left" for asking) yet his underlying goal in this was that the Federal government should exist to perpetuate the wealth and power of the elite (precisely the situation that today's "left" finds abhorrent). On the other hand the Democratic-Republicans, and Jefferson in particular, wanted an extremely weak Federal government to ensure that the working people were not exploited by the rich (exactly what has been accelerating at a dizzying pace since Reagan took office).

The basic underlying philosophical question, as it has evolved today, is whether "the government" has a responsibility to "protect" and "nurture" the society that it controls, or whether society can be self-regulating without governmental oversight.

Personally, I consider the ascendance of what I can only think of as "the radical right" in recent decades as the 2nd greatest threat that this country has ever faced (behind the institution of slavery, which it eerily resembles). I believe that the general population is starting to awaken to the fact that they have been screwed, blued, and tatooed at an unprecedented scale for a generation and a half, and I just hope that they will recognize the fact that is has been the political actions of the minions of the 0.1% that have enabled this to happen.

User avatar
ohaimark
Kingpin

14 May 2016, 15:22

"It's far easier than you think to manipulate a nation of naive, self-absorbed sheep who crave instant gratification," the unknown pol writes in The Confessions of Congressman X.
The fault isn't only the government's. Much of the fault lies with the population of sheeple who can't handle big picture thinking. Think of the idiots you know. Now consider the fact that they can vote.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

14 May 2016, 15:42

I'm mostly wondering how jacobolus finds all this time to write such lengthy responses.

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Muirium
µ

14 May 2016, 15:51

Ergo keyboards. He types at like 400 wpm…

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

14 May 2016, 16:17

Muirium wrote: Ergo keyboards. He types at like 400 wpm…
I've never found ergo keyboards to increase wpm, but they do help with pain from everything below the shoulders.

I also would like to add in my two cents, but I don't feel like I can offer a proper response to everything that has been said.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

14 May 2016, 16:24

This talk about keyboards is offtopic.

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fohat
Elder Messenger

14 May 2016, 16:31

ohaimark wrote:
the population of sheeple who can't handle big picture thinking
And this is where "the system" breaks down.

(1) It's all about the money. (2) It's all about the money. (3) It's all about the money.

I lost my religion a long time ago but for you who still believe: Mark 12:17

The ultra-wealthy have have been siphoning every cent out of our society (since the dawn of civilization, of course, but it has gotten far easier in the computer age) and hoarding it where it cannot do any good for anyone. The societies of the world are strangling and dying as a result.

Money is a resource, like water, and the billionaire stashing his loot in the Cayman Islands is no different from a landowner damming a river that passes through his property, parching the farms below.

When the cynics realized that they could keep the sheeple whipped into a perpetual frenzy over silly 2nd-tier junk social crap like gay rights, "religious liberty" - NOT, prohibitions against intoxicants, sex scandals, guns, etc, etc, and then secure the votes of whoever they had financed into office, then the system could be rigged however they wanted.

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

14 May 2016, 16:37

webwit wrote: This talk about keyboards is offtopic.
Yes, and tiring to follow. ;D

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Muirium
µ

14 May 2016, 16:43

Ugh. I know. Can't we put aside contentious issues like keyfeel and legends, and concentrate again on the finer things in life, like whether females are truly humans too and why it's poor people's fault they're poor? Won't someone please think of the…

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

14 May 2016, 16:55

If human females are not human, then none of us are which would not surprise me. Let's go further off topic. :D

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ohaimark
Kingpin

14 May 2016, 17:34

I was blessed with a good understanding of the female species. Don't ask me how I manage -- it isn't a teachable skill. :lol:

It certainly isn't *entirely* poor people who are at fault for their poorness -- there are plenty of roadblocks and oppressive factors in place which prevent everyone from rising to the near-mythical middle class. Some responsibility for one's condition will always belong to oneself, though. It's possible to be poor AND not live in squalor.

Certain people, either through the birth-lottery (born in advantageous circumstances) or self application, become more valuable than others to society. Many people have the qualifications to be janitors and few have the qualifications to be programmers, for example. Economics say that the janitors are worth less because they are less scarce.

The birth-lottery is far worse because of the outmoded hereditary and racial systems to which we cling. Doing away with "free" inheritance is something that I always keep on my mental back burner. You want your parents' property? Pay something to purchase it just like everyone else would. No trust funds. No loopholes. No free money. No bullshit. I have no problem with parents educating, feeding, and clothing their child with accumulated wealth. But when the child turns 18, all wealth transfers other than college relating funding should be cut off.

I wouldn't be comfortable with funneling the wealth of recently deceased people back to the government, but mandating that they dump their entire liquidated estate into businesses which they owned (as capital for expansion) or charities (hopefully related to public education) would do away with a lot of the inherited inequality that occurs. I'm of the opinion that an individual's accomplishments should dictate one's worth, not the parents'. Well-to-do children still wouldn't be rising from the bottom, but the playing field would be much more even.

And, by god, do away with the local taxes which support public schools and let the state manage it. It's rare for me to want the state to control something, so take note. Rich areas end up with disproportionately higher funding due to higher property values, hence higher taxes.

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Muirium
µ

14 May 2016, 17:42

Good, now we're getting somewhere!

Next up: people without Topres have only themselves to blame.

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ohaimark
Kingpin

14 May 2016, 17:43

I don't have a Topre. Stop oppressing me, Deskthority! Sell me one at an 85% discount!

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Muirium
µ

14 May 2016, 17:46

You have bad taste in keyboards, you are poor and lazy, and your womenfolk are subhuman.

Free to speak the truth at last. Progress!

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ohaimark
Kingpin

14 May 2016, 17:51

Bwahahahah. You have me at poor and lazy.

I disagree about the womenfolk, I suppose.

But taste in keyboards is subjective, you microscopic-minded bigot! (Don't overlook the pun.)

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fohat
Elder Messenger

14 May 2016, 17:51

Muirium wrote:
Free to speak the truth at last. Progress!
You guys are right, this is getting far too deep.

from years ago on Geekhack:


Anonymous Coward wrote:
I feel ashamed when I see a grown up man say things like "...a sharp drop at the actuation point at around 2/3 - 3/4 way down the..."

Don't you have anything better to do with your life than yammering away on the minute details of a keyboard? I have both an M and an F that I picked up at goodwill for nothing 15 years ago and for the first time yesterday I googled about them and found 'enthusiast' (here an euphemism for retarded) websites where idiots bounce off the walls telling each other about the orgasms per second they have when using them. And 'using' is an overstatement with 90% of those morons. Most are busy opening them, cleaning the last atom of dirt off them, 'restoring' what doesn't need any restoration, 'upgrading', thinking of names for them, 'modding', taking photos, showing them off, in general jerking off about the clicky sensations and the superb accuracy of their typing and other general uber-dorkiness. What I never found there was anything useful to do with them, ie. actually program a computer.

Go type 'messenger lectures' in youtube and see what smart people look like, then kill yourself disassembling your One True Keyboard(TM) for the nth time and swallowing all the buckling springs.

And then mail one of your remaining model Fs to me.
Last edited by fohat on 14 May 2016, 17:53, edited 2 times in total.

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Muirium
µ

14 May 2016, 17:52

Hey, pal, I assure you that fine head of platinum blond of mine is ALL REAL you insensitive clod!

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ohaimark
Kingpin

14 May 2016, 17:55

Thread derailed with insults and ad hominems: SUCCESS.
... you insensitive clod!
Yeah, I'll own that. 8-)

jacobolus

14 May 2016, 20:30

Kurplop wrote: I still think that you are unaware of your strong biases, i.e. your condemnation of GOP politicians for being "forced to spend approximately all of their time scurrying about collecting campaign contributions, their constituents are all being fed an information diet of lies and distortions by Fox News and right-wing talk radio, and they are under constant primary challenge from the “Tea Party” right, it’s pretty difficult for them to act responsibly." I agree with your statement but would add that MSNBC, left wing radio, and groups such as Black Lives Matters pretty well even the playing field and that fundraising is epidemic on both sides. Perhaps we would all do well to "remove the log from our own eyes first".
First, I absolutely agree that Democratic Party congressmen also face too much money/time pressure. For this reason, I think campaign finance reform is of crucial importance. The US Supreme Court blew open Pandora’s box with the Citizens United case, and it’s going to be hard to put the lid back on.

If it were up to me, we’d have sharp limits on outside campaign spending, a greater amount of public election financing, automatic voter registration, vote by mail in every state, and a national election holiday (or maybe polls open over the weekend).

There’s a significant difference in kind between between heavily funded primary challenges from the right and a more extremist and reactionary political culture among conservatives, and criticism from Black Lives matter or what have you on the left. If you track policy positions, votes, or just listen to politicians statements, there has been a severe radical shift to the right in the Republican party over the past 30 years. If you look to the Democratic party, it has also trended rightward (or at least money-ward), though there’s plenty of noise and churn. The most radical Democratic party proposals are for stuff like carbon taxes, the same kind of effective healthcare system the rest of the developed world has been enjoying for decades, restoration of 1990s income tax levels, continuing funding for the NSF and NIH, public infrastructure construction/maintenance projects, requirements for police to wear body cameras and record interrogations, and a minimum wage which keeps up with inflation.

In the media, there’s nothing remotely comparable on the left to Fox News or right wing talk radio. It just doesn’t exist. (Which is for the best; such media is pure cancer.) I think MSNBC is boring and not very good journalism (also, not remotely leftist), but it’s not lying through its teeth all day long. If you hunt for “left-wing” publications, you’ll find The Nation, The Baffler, Democracy Now, whatever Bill Moyers gets up to, a bunch of blogs, maybe if you’re pushing definitions The New York Review of Books or The New Yorker or Rolling Stone, etc. The content in such sources is serious, with high editorial standards, careful fact checking, and retractions of mistakes. There are some wacky leftists writing factually wrong clickbait on the internet (in some dusty corner of the Daily Kos or Salon.com or wherever), but they don’t have any influence to speak of.

The asymmetry between cultures and parties can’t just be papered over with a “both sides are the same”. They are not the same. One is staunchly anti-intellectual, anti-science, and anti-empirical, and is hoping government will fail, to prove a point (this doesn’t describe all Republican voters, but the rest are also complicit insofar as they continue to condone the nonsense). The other is trying to have a serious conversation and wants society to function.

As a society, we probably need some better media business models, and better media regulation. I don’t know what the right answer is, but modern journalism is in a pretty bad place.

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Muirium
µ

15 May 2016, 00:22

Look, everyone, let's all be calm. And watch Australia win the Eurovision Song Contest.

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webwit
Wild Duck

15 May 2016, 01:32

Australia? The European expansion drive is getting out of hands.

Kurplop

15 May 2016, 02:09

fohat wrote: If you consider my observations to be "cheesy" then I am disappointed to realize that you have not considered them below the most superficial level (and they certainly seem less "cheesy" to me than your immigrant/burglar metaphor).
Fohat, take a deep breath and relax. It was just a joke. Whine and cheese. Get it? I wasn't trying to make any point.
ohaimark wrote: Certain people, either through the birth-lottery (born in advantageous circumstances) or self application, become more valuable than others to society. Many people have the qualifications to be janitors and few have the qualifications to be programmers, for example. Economics say that the janitors are worth less because they are less scarce.

The birth-lottery is far worse because of the outmoded hereditary and racial systems to which we cling. Doing away with "free" inheritance is something that I always keep on my mental back burner. You want your parents' property? Pay something to purchase it just like everyone else would. No trust funds. No loopholes. No free money. No bullshit. I have no problem with parents educating, feeding, and clothing their child with accumulated wealth. But when the child turns 18, all wealth transfers other than college relating funding should be cut off.

I wouldn't be comfortable with funneling the wealth of recently deceased people back to the government, but mandating that they dump their entire liquidated estate into businesses which they owned (as capital for expansion) or charities (hopefully related to public education) would do away with a lot of the inherited inequality that occurs. I'm of the opinion that an individual's accomplishments should dictate one's worth, not the parents'. Well-to-do children still wouldn't be rising from the bottom, but the playing field would be much more even.
I actually agree with you that there is an inherent problem with "dynasty families" who in many ways resemble monarchs by way of the potential power they can have over people. I think some measures, in the spirit of the trust busting of the early 1900's, may be in order. Even reasonable inheritance taxes are likely in order. I am always concerned however with "experts" in government and academia tinkering with social engineering, either playing us like pawns in their national chess game to their own ends, or trying to level a playing field that can't be leveled.

My concerns with the confiscation of personal inheritance is at least threefold. First, to whom does the inheritance go to? If to business or charity, which one? Who decides? What qualifies the eligibility of a valid recipient? It seems to me the only logical beneficiary would be the government. Second, sudden reshuffling of assets seems ripe for instability and inefficiency in society and the marketplace. One need not have a highly developed imagination to imagine all sorts of calamities and malfeasance resulting from that. And last and probably the most devastating, the end of property rights; one of the most important and fundamental rights we enjoy. By it, people are inspired to excel and be the best they can. Why work, why build, why plan if the fruit of your efforts are taken from your control. As a parent I am prejudiced, not only do I want to give my children a good foundation but I want the freedom to help them throughout their lives. I want good parents to be rewarded for making wise decisions, not penalized as we are now. We should incentivize good and responsible parenting, not reward the bad and irresponsible. I say this as a lower middle class worker, raised in a lower class demographic. I'm sure this will offend those who will say I don't get it and that it's not the fault of the child who was born in poverty and ignorance. I agree and realize they need assistance. My point is that I believe that a healthy, prepared family unit is much better able to meet a child's needs and that end should be encouraged. Allowing individuals to keep most of the nest egg they built is an important step in encouraging self sufficiency.

Jacobolus—

The high cost of presenting a candidate to the public is a travesty but the rise of figures such as Obama, Trump and Sanders defy the notion that you need big money donors; at least through the primaries. These examples may well just be anomalies brought on by widespread discontent with the status quo.

I disagree that there are significant differences between Fox and MSNBC, and also corresponding radio outlets. I guess where you draw the line defining left and right depends on where you stand. The major difference I see between them is the success of the conservative outlets. I confess I'm no policy wonk, and don't take my magnifying glass to every bill presented but do tend to enjoy in-depth interviews of officials where the host isn't pushing an agenda. Among such cable shows I enjoy CNN's Washington Journal, but most shows that do in depth balanced analysis of guests and policy issues tend to be less popular with the general public.

jacobolus

15 May 2016, 02:43

I was talking about congressional (and other down-ballot) elections, but sure, the presidential elections should also have some campaign finance reform. The rise of “superpacs” with no spending limits of any kind and no need to publicly list their donors is a travesty. The Clinton (and Romney, Bush, Rubio, Cruz, etc.) campaigns prove that the limp rules about PACs not coordinating with the official campaign are practically unenforceable.

Did you see Stephen Colbert’s excellent bits about the subject with Trevor Potter, back during the 2012 election cycle? Some media student compiled a bunch of clips into some youtube montages (but I recommend searching comedy central’s site for the full original bits):

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Muirium
µ

15 May 2016, 04:04

webwit wrote: Australia? The European expansion drive is getting out of hands.
Would you believe it? They failed! I'm pure incensed. I walk away from the epic diplomatic menagerie disguised as a song contest for a mere evening and those vile bastards the great people of Europe failed me and Oz together! To think if I'd been any more sober I might have made a wager on that delightful geographic farce of a result in the making. Aussievision! No, instead of doing the right thing and undermining the very definition of Europe, the plebs were tempted by another noble path: to poke a friendly western finger up Comrade Putin in support for that hot chick from Ukraine. So it wasn't a total loss, I suppose. But Australia, man, Australia! On their first outing! Democracy once again has failed all of us.

Can we have India in next year? Even I might stick around for a solid Bollywood number.

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ohaimark
Kingpin

15 May 2016, 05:41

Kurplop wrote: My concerns with the confiscation of personal inheritance is at least threefold. First, to whom does the inheritance go to? If to business or charity, which one? Who decides? What qualifies the eligibility of a valid recipient? It seems to me the only logical beneficiary would be the government... And last and probably the most devastating, the end of property rights; one of the most important and fundamental rights we enjoy.
All valid points, even the ones which I left out due to space.

To which would it go? That would be the individual's choice.
What qualifies the eligibility? Government standards set by voters, in theory. >.<

The end of property rights is perhaps the most interesting point you make. Why is your property still your property when you're dead? It seems like a silly legal concept. I'm fine with people passing on wealth while alive, but shunting it off to blood relatives or other beneficiaries when dead reeks of inequality. Yes, YOU did good work. YOU kept your nest egg. YOU spent your money on your child's private schooling, cars, clothes, etc. But the child-who-turned-adult shouldn't be able to use YOUR money for personal gain. I wouldn't mind provisions being in place for children whose parents die early, but if they die when their descendant is a 40 year old, that 40 year old shouldn't get a random and unearned infusion of wealth. At least not if you want the playing field level for the next 40 years of that descendant's life, and that descendant's child's life, etc.

jacobolus

15 May 2016, 05:48

Many charities are at least partly tax evasion / money laundering schemes these days. (As are many Super PACs, charter schools, etc.) Many of the rest turn out to be basically scams, spending almost nothing on their stated causes while paying their management high salaries and funneling most of their earnings back into collecting more contributions. [This also goes for political campaigns: For example, Ben Carson’s campaign was basically a direct mailer scam which transcended itself, shocking Carson himself, who never intended to be a real candidate.]

If you’re a billionaire, the idea is you can put your money into one of these organizations, and then have it hire your buddies or children, funnel money into lobbying for your interests, etc. Simultaneously gives you a PR boost (“what a mensch, donated 90% of his wealth to charity! who cares how he earned it?”) and saves a *lot* on taxes, while still leaving you in control of the money.

Forcing inheritance to be to a charity wouldn’t accomplish anything in practice, except forcing rich people to get even better at shifting the money around to meet the letter of the law.

I don’t think it’s practical to entirely block inheritances, but they should have a strongly progressive tax structure, topping out at maybe a 90% tax rate for amounts above, say, $20 million. Nobody needs to inherit billions of dollars. If you want to do something with the money other than toss it into the federal government’s general fund, it could alternately be parceled out equally to every citizen, as the first part of an unconditional basic income scheme.

It would probably also be an overall social improvement if we entirely abolished tax deductions for charitable contributions.

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ohaimark
Kingpin

15 May 2016, 06:03

I'd be fine creating "death returns" which were lumped together with "tax returns." :lol:

How would you go about liquidating businesses and physical assets, in that case?

Edit: I can hear conservative arguments now. "We need those uber wealthy families to fund new things to make the economy tick!" No, we have corporations and small businesses for that. Besides, if those families are really worth diddly shit past their cash their descendants will be able to make enough money regardless of how much they start with.

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