Let's All Be Terribly Civil and Sip Tea and Talk About Europe

[7bit]

Whats Merkel doing with the internet! That needs to go back to Big Ben as soon as possible!

She might not even know what the hell it is! So as usual the Merkel agenda is: wait and do nothing.

merkel-hands.jpg

Because she is a physicist, the question how much the internet weights is not so trivial for her, as it seems to you.

[seebart]

Of course 7bit, she's running Germany like a physicist also IMO. Altbackene Apotheke.

[DanielT]

And what is wrong with being a physicist ?
If she were doing it like a physicist she would use a model and not that chaotic hausfrau method...

[Chyros]

Oh dear, she's a physicist! They use formulae and they're all evil and shit D; .

[7bit]

And what is wrong with being a physicist ?
If she were doing it like a physicist she would use a model and not that chaotic hausfrau method...

Precisely!

[DanielT]

Oh dear, she's a physicist! They use formulae and they're all evil and shit D; .

You are talking about chemists

[seebart]

If she were doing it like a physicist she would use a model and not that chaotic hausfrau method...

I think Daniel is not so Germany "happy" anymore.

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[DanielT]

I am happy to be back home, I have a theory that each should love his land and try and make his own country a better place and not search that somewhere else unless it is the only option. I was not thinking that way a few months ago...
And I am a physicist working as IT'ler

[7bit]

I am happy to be back home, I have a theory that each should love his land and try and make his own country a better place and not search that somewhere else unless it is the only option. I was not thinking that way a few months ago...
And I am a physicist working as IT'ler

You should become a politician!

[seebart]

I am happy to be back home, I have a theory that each should love his land and try and make his own country a better place and not search that somewhere else unless it is the only option. I was not thinking that way a few months ago...
And I am a physicist working as IT'ler

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[Muirium]

Real physicists do it in chalk.

[Halvar]

I am happy to be back home, I have a theory that each should love his land and try and make his own country a better place and not search that somewhere else unless it is the only option. I was not thinking that way a few months ago.. .

Mission accomplished for Seehofer and his posse I guess.

And I am a physicist working as IT'ler

Me too!

[Chyros]

Oh dear, she's a physicist! They use formulae and they're all evil and shit D; .

You are talking about chemists

No that's me, we plan for world domination and work with evil chemicals :p .

[seebart]

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[webwit]

Why would anyone vote on a politician?

[photekq]

What would you suggest photekq?
They are coming to Europe. There is no stopping that, unless we start sinking boats. Greece (and Italy) have vast sea borders and Turkey doesn't seem willing/able to stop the refugees from getting on a boat.
Should we let them on the boats until they starve or sink? Do we rescue them? And after we rescue them what? Put them in camps until somehow we manage to send them back? Or act like actual empathetic human beings and try to help them live a modest life?
Apparently you believe immigration is an issue. What makes certain immigrants unwanted? Who is to decide?
Should the United States have refused German and Irish immigrants?
If I get a job and come to the UK for a year or 10, am I not an immigrant? Should I be denied access?

Also don't forget that most of these people are not just economic migrants. They are refugees, they are fleeing war.
Yes, there will be some that will try to take advantage of the situation, but that has to be sorted after they arrive.
EU can't just look the other side and impose border controls when Greece in January was getting on average 3500 arrivals EACH DAY. (http://reliefweb.int/report/greece/gree ... 1-feb-2016).

Sorry, I did write a response to this a few days ago but my browser crashed. I couldn't be bothered rewriting it until now..

This is a bit of a wall of text, so I wouldn't blame you if you choose not to read it, but I would be very happy if you do.

I will reply in sections. Before starting, I will mention a few relevant things which may aid in understanding my point of view:

I have no hatred in my heart; not towards any peoples or any culture.

I'm a nationalist. Not just towards my own country and my own culture, but towards every country and every culture. I strongly believe that every country should be left to its own people, so that they may form their own path. Now, you ask "What if a country and its native population chooses to move towards multiculturalism?". If a country chooses that as their path then so be it. If it is the will of the people, then it is the path the country must take. However, I believe multiculturalism cannot work once the population of non-natives reaches a certain point - anything over 10% and you will see problems spring up more and more frequently. An exception to this would be migration of Europeans within Europe, as our countries have such similar values. I imagine that if there were a country comprised of an equal mix of British, Italian, German and French people everyone would get on reasonably well. That said, I would still not encourage such migration. I do not see any advantage to multiculturalism, and I will fight against it until I pass. It pains me deeply to see the unique, beautiful cultures of the world become more dissolute.

I do not pay attention to the popular media, and I'm not easily scared by fearmongers. I try my very best to only pay attention to the facts, although that can be very difficult in this world of lies.

What would you suggest photekq?
They are coming to Europe. There is no stopping that, unless we start sinking boats. Greece (and Italy) have vast sea borders and Turkey doesn't seem willing/able to stop the refugees from getting on a boat.
Should we let them on the boats until they starve or sink? Do we rescue them? And after we rescue them what? Put them in camps until somehow we manage to send them back? Or act like actual empathetic human beings and try to help them live a modest life?

Ok. You would like to hear my ideal solution? I say that it should be made clear to all attempting to reach European shores/borders that they will be turned back if they manage to do so, that they should halt any attempt to get here. The EU and its constituent countries should offer Greece and other countries aid in protecting their borders. (Of course, this won't ever happen.) This should be done until a method of differentiating true refugees from economic migrants has been established. || I should mention here that I do not know where you found evidence that supports your statement "most of these people are not just economic migrants. They are refugees, they are fleeing war.". Even Eurostat, the official EU statistics agency, claims that only 1 in 5 migrants are refugees from Syria. The majority of these people are not refugees, they are economic migrants. Also, the vast majority of those coming in are lone men, not women and children. You realise that most of these men will later be allowed to bring their families over, right? Do you realise the scale of this?|| Once this has been done, we can begin to think about offering these people refuge.

Do not get me wrong: I am absolutely not against offering refuge to those who need it, but I am against letting a neverending and unlimited flow of economic migrants into Europe. You know, it's not just economic migrants. It's people from Africa and the Middle East whose beliefs, values and culture are not so compatible with our own. No, I'm not saying these people are terrorists or anything idiotic like that, but it might surprise you to learn that a large number of these people hold beliefs that most of us would see as very extreme. I take this from a source that I deem to be mostly free of bias - the Pew Forum report on Islam. Also, lest us forget the position of women in the countries that these migrants of coming from. We must be careful with this migrant crisis, as we are playing with fire.

Apparently you believe immigration is an issue. What makes certain immigrants unwanted? Who is to decide?
Should the United States have refused German and Irish immigrants?
If I get a job and come to the UK for a year or 10, am I not an immigrant? Should I be denied access?

I do believe immigration is an issue because of the way it is handled. I have no problem with someone immigrating so long as the following criteria is met :

1) They are skilled OR are coming in order to go through further education. The whole "they do the jobs we won't do!" is a load of rubbish. The number of youths needing work in the UK, for example, is huge. They will work. They must work. They cry out against the outsourcing of the jobs they need, but their voices land on deaf ears.

2) They assimilate into the culture of their new home country. Note that I do not say "integrate", as is popular. No, I do not think integration is enough. For it to work, they must assimilate. As far as I'm concerned, someone should not consider immigrating to a country unless their values and beliefs align well with the population of that country. That's the biggest step. They should relish and partake in their new country's culture, rather than stick within small communities of people from their country of birth as is so common.

Yes, if you came to the UK to work you would count as an immigrant too. Same as if I went to Germany to work! While the countries that comprise Europe are similar at their core the same rules must apply to European migrants, as we must be consistent. Being skilled and being ready to assimilate are a must. Of course, assimilating would be much easier if you are migrating between European countries, since the cultures have so much in common.

[7bit]

Real physicists do it in chalk.

No!


Real physicists use real machines running real systems!

[Halvar]

CERN Datacenter

[DanielT]

And do not forget www was born at CERN

[seebart]

I agree with you photekq, biggest problem being we are way beyond that stage, at least here in Germany which is all I can speak for. To sum the chaotic situation up here now I would have to say the german goverment was completely unprepared for these massive refugee numbers and is just now very slowly coming to grips with the very most important problems. No one knows how this is going to work in the long term. Integration is a difficult long term task. Germany has somewhere around three million unemployed people without counting the refugees. Another disturbing fact is that many of these refugees came to the EU with completely unrealistic expectations which they were often also told these fairy tales by the smugglers. I have seen images online similair to this promoting Germany as some land of milk and honey for anyone who wants to live here. Of course many of these refugees will believe this in their desperation. This situation is the biggest "problem" Germany has had to face since the end of WW2. Of course it's also a chance for strengthening and groth, a very long term prospect. Huge problem is also the political shift to the right by many who were moderate before. The next german elections will be very interesting.

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[vivalarevolución]

Let's just do our best to get along and cease with these artificial barriers and labels we place upon one another. Perhaps we could hold hands, sing songs around the fire, share some baguettes and cheese, and go to bed with someone that speaks a different language. Because the language of love is universal.

Amen and good night.

[webwit]

They are mechanical keyboard barbarians.

[photekq]

Let's just do our best to get along and cease with these artificial barriers and labels we place upon one another. Perhaps we could hold hands, sing songs around the fire, share some baguettes and cheese, and go to bed with someone that speaks a different language. Because the language of love is universal.

Amen and good night.

Bloody hippies

[vivalarevolución]

Let's just do our best to get along and cease with these artificial barriers and labels we place upon one another. Perhaps we could hold hands, sing songs around the fire, share some baguettes and cheese, and go to bed with someone that speaks a different language. Because the language of love is universal.

Amen and good night.

Bloody hippies

In this modern world, I'm convinced that love is best option we have left, considering all the other avenues that tired and failed.

[photekq]

In this modern world, I'm convinced that love is best option we have left, considering all the other avenues that tired and failed.

I'm convinced that you're a bloody hippie

A lot of avenues have been tried, but not with honesty and truth at the helm with only people and country in mind. Without those nothing can be successful.

Love is not the answer. Love is suicide considering the current state of things. That said, moving towards not starting wars, toppling reigimes and turning countries into shells of their former selves in the name of the petrodollar would be nice.

[fohat]

The world is hurtling towards disaster and literally everybody knows it.

Unfortunately, there are countless people, and groups of people, who hold diverse and irreconcilable views on the causes and the solutions to the world's myriad problems.

Worst of all, there are far too many people engaged in the "I had better get whatever I can get while I can still get it" coupled with exploding population in general (mostly in the areas that can least support it) and that is exacerbating all the other problems.

Until the human race comes to grips with its consumption and depletion of the planet's resources, there is no viable solution.

Love is not the answer, but sacrifice is. That one is even harder to swallow.

[seebart]

Compromise, willingness to change and flexibility are the "solutions" IMO. But humans are stubborn scared advanced apes with primal instincts that do not seem to filter out over centuries. Yes fohat, things sure are looking grimm right now. It's gonna be a looong tough road.

[vivalarevolución]

The world is hurtling towards disaster and literally everybody knows it.

Love is not the answer, but sacrifice is. That one is even harder to swallow.

I love this planet, I love the young people in my family. I will make sacrifices in my consumption habits, to make this planet last for future generations, so they can experience all the beautiful places as I have done.

When we find the capacity within ourselves to love one person, you may realize that if you could love that one human, it is not out of the question to love more than one human being. Despite what makes us different, we are all human, capable of treating each other like humans, not property, not enemies, not objects.

This is not a principle that I expect to be an actionable solution to the problems that face our world. I just believe that conflicts between humans are solved with positive emotions. To simply spout negativity and dwell on the negative, you do not solve the root of the issue. What is difficult is recognizing all the issues that inhabit this world and our people, and understanding understanding how difficult they are to solve. All I can propose is improving how we interact with and accept each other.

I think we limit what love means. Love has no limits. Just try to define the word or the concept. It is difficult.

[sinusoid]

Europe is an amazing idea but the implementation is poor and the people running it are idiots.

You forgot to mention that they're not using version control.
They don't even have a github account.
They're... governmenting like some sort of animals!

It's worse than systemd.

Bunch of observations as an insider:
In the wake of the immigrant crisis, it seems that everyone tries to pull on their own string. Long forgotten nationalist fetishes spring back with full power. A lot of people mistakenly see these as a way to solve the cultural influence brought in by predominantly Muslim immigrants. A thing that's a huge chance for everyone is turned into a gigantic failure by absolute mismanagement, idiocy, and lack of understanding of sociopolitical processes. It all feels like being ruled by a marketing department with forward-planning abilities of a goldfish.
The individual countries drain their economies dry by maintaining exquisite social programmes. The better they are, the more immigrants they attract. Germany is not good enough, they need UK!
Brussels and the individual countries try to regulate absolutely everything, but the controls are superficial, and it's easy to pass under the radar. They often destroy working regulations by some unified bullshit.
The Brussels HQ found a magical way of turning money into feces, with paper as a byproduct. Well-paid specialists are yet to find remnants of the missing Shakespeare works in these, though I heard that this project's been put on hiatus due to imminent Brexit; specialist payrolls doubled.

And the worst thing?
I hate what's happening here, so I decided I'll vote with my feet and GTFO. For the past year I've been researching places to expat myself into (yes, you too, US, and you, Canada). I haven't found anything better enough to be worth the effort, but I'm trying not to panic.

We live in interesting times.

Also, hi deskthority! Firstpost, is there an intro ritual here?

edit:

They are mechanical keyboard barbarians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuWrhLaellg
There needs to be a spinoff of this. With keyboards. And a 98% funding from the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund.

[Muirium]

This evening, I am mostly drinking Kenyan tea. For what it's worth.