Let's All Be Terribly Civil and Sip Tea and Talk About Europe

[TuxKey]

@kbdfr I agree with you on a couple of topics.. mainly that we have seen change for the better..
One big problem in my humble opinion is that we have a single currency and many different
cultures and customs..way of doing stuf way of reacting to problems and ways of solving them..

All is good and well. But add one of the most important factor to lots of people in the mix like money and it’s a powder cake waiting to blow up mate..

Controlling your own currency and interest rates is one of the most important tools
you have to nudge your economie one way or the other..
Giving that tool up is very dangerous possible mind you but very dangerous..
It would require a better or different human being.
Almost to the level of StarTrek ...
it’s difficult to explain what i mean..But just look at a couple of nations..
And the right political parties taking root there..

When something bad happens we still like to blame others..
And we revert in to our hard shell like a tortoise..

What i’m saying is we might be one EU but with different flags and we clinch to
our own cultural ideal standard..

Also lot’s of things have gone bad...but that’s a whole different story

now i know it’s a long documentary and you can watch it in segments..
But believe me it will change your life...
https://youtu.be/B4wU9ZnAKAw

[7bit]

If you ask me, interrogate every refugee and if the outcome is they are fundamentalist islamic, give them a free flight to their one and only true home country: Saudi Arabia.


Same for criminals.


Just my 2 spoons of Senf!

[ohaimark]

If you ask me, interrogate every refugee and if the outcome is they are fundamentalist islamic, give them a free flight to their one and only true home country: Saudi Arabia.


Same for criminals.


Just my 2 spoons of Senf!

And... They lie. Hell, they could tell us they're Roman Catholic and we'd have no way to disprove it.

Are we to use "enhanced interrogation techniques?"

[7bit]

Good point!


But believe me, there are ways to tell if somebody is a radicalist or not.


Just give them a Charlie Hebdo magazine and see if they like it or not!

[TuxKey]

First there was the disgraceful way the big boys treated Greece in the bailout. (Portugal didn't get much better, frankly, but the media can only juggle one ball at a time.) Oddly enough, I sympathize with Angela Merkel and I reckon she's the one thing keeping the EU together right now. But understanding her position, and the large nations angry, entitled citizens, didn't help me swallow the pill that Europe had beaten the shit out of one of its own. That hard shakedown was not what this club was meant to be about. We handled bad, apparently impossible, shit before. But not like this. Our current generation of politicians really don't mind inflicting direct human suffering any more. And polling says their nations support it. What the duck?

I Totally agree disgraceful is putting it mildly...Just watch Noam Chomsky please guys..
it will change your life..view on what really happens in the world..
Angela Merkel was loud in her opinion in regards to the debt Greece accumulated..
But what she doesn't tell you is that most of that debt came from German banks and other EU banks that were willing to lend Greece all the $$ it wanted and sell them products they knew would eventually lead them in to a one way street !
Don't forget Germany once had a big debt and that waived..
Here he talks a bit on the EU crisis.

Second, there was our independence referendum here in Scotland. We heard encouraging things for the Yes side from Catalans and Basques but bugger all else. Understandable, as EU governments have relations with London they want to maintain, but none with us in Edinburgh. (One of the many reasons for independence, in itself.) But Madrid went absolutely balls to the wall during the campaign. They promised to veto any Scottish application to enter the EU on independence, which the No side ran with hard. Domestic Spanish fears of Catalan independence drove them to that dirty move, I imagine. Yet what was worse was the wave of open relief and congratulation for David Cameron across Europe once the narrow No result was in. Back to blessed business as usual. It was clear that European leaders saw it entirely as a test for him, our remotely elected Tory leader who 85% of Scots never voted for, rather than a matter of nationhood and history for us. We didn't exist. Classy, guys, you did notice that 45% of us want out of Britain, and we are a lot younger than the 55%, who we duly beat up in the next year's election? Like everything in Europe, this story's far from over.

Noam Chomsky would call this a good example of Plutocracy and i 100% agree with that one..
The 1% ers as they are called rulle of the masses..

And then finally Syria, the end of free movement for all skin colours, and the Muslim hating wave that's sloshing across the continent. My god, is Europe playing this badly. We should be welcoming those millions of migrants around our great continent. They're hopeful, and yes by and large middle classed people with skills Europe needs. And yet we've listened to the whispers in our ear from the Charlie Hebdo murderers and the Bataclan butchers. We're hypnotized by the same End Times delusion that beats as Isis heart.

What the living fuck are we doing?

It's a way of maintaining control over people. Making sure people focus on differences between different people..the us vs them factor..
This is my favourite Noam Chomsky interview

When I read about 1914 as a teen, I was amazed at how dumb every nation in Europe was to enter that human grinder of a war. I just couldn't understand it. The Berlin Wall was down at the time and we were up to things like peace in Northern Ireland and even Palestine! It seemed like history had marched on far since then.

But now I not so sure. The world has gone to shit since 2000. I'm not a pessimist or a conspiracy riven nut, and I do hope things will get back on track in time. But we're in a weird throwback right now, and still just as capable as ever of piling mistakes on mistakes all too high.

That's not to say I'm for leaving the EU. But I'm very wary of its mismanagement now indeed.

As you know we have intelligent people in the world so i refuse to believe it's all just a coincidence.
Or just the nature of humans..But i believe and agree with Noam Chomsky that we are doing this knowingly and willingly..
So i am left with one possibility and that's that there are a few people benefiting from this whole situation.

Like you i'm not planing on leaving the EU just yet..but if that day is to come..
i'm going as far as i can from any country that has one shared currency..

[Muirium]

I don't buy that "join the dots" argument of conspiracies. Elites are rich and greedy, but only the most incompetent ones actively try to make the world worse. The Saudi ruling family for instance, and very much Isis. The rest is all down to human nature. Speaking of which, I just read this well worded piece:

The bogeyman is a mnemonic. A mental aid that parents use to get their petulant sprogs to do their bidding.

Another group of people with short attention spans that have a tendency to be unpredictable, contradictory and difficult to influence are the great British electorate.

Successful communication with the electorate, as with children, can be facilitated through the use of simple, relatable shortcuts that communicate information in a way that can be easily understood and retained. If they are non-verbal, all the better.

And as successful campaigns require a threat of darkness as well as a promise of light, having a bogeyman ready for deployment is important.

Cameron's Brexit referendum campaign is kicking off now, and both sides are already at it:




VS.



Remain will win. Farage is the perfect hate figure. Only Boris could have saved them, but he's too interested in the top job to take a tar and feathering at the worst possible scale and moment. Neither do I think England's Outers have the balls to play the Islamic terror card and make all their advertising about sleeper cells and sharia. They've much to learn.

Ooga Booga Booga!

[ohaimark]

Just monitor their blood pressure while they read Hebdo.

Frankly, I don't think we're doing long-term good by taking in refugees.

By accepting refugees we're basically:

A) Removing the motivation for cultural revolution -- people fight harder to protect their own interests
B) Removing all the moderate influences from the area, leaving it to the "bad guys"
C) Causing issues while integrating cultures into very different cultures
D) Using money that we don't have to help them out

Unless we can get all the moderates out and kill all the extremists who remain that tactic isn't viable.

In most cases, cultural revolutions happened/happen because people can't run from what's happening and are forced to deal with it en masse.

Many countries supplied weapons, training, and loans to revolutionary groups in the past (France + U.S.). Otherwise countries simply waited until things turned into war and duked it out with their full economies... Being razed into oblivion usually resulted in a bit more moderation by the second or third war.

All sorts of problems and changes in warfare make things different for the modern world... But being embroiled in conflict constantly for 40 years isn't a reasonable way to exist. A solution must be found, even if it is drastic.

Why is Muslim culture so bad at dealing with its own extremists?

[Muirium]

Because Islamic counties are poor, developing nations, with deep scars from our European empires that still ran them only a few generations ago. Goodness, look at Algeria! Then there's all the tension with a militant Israel and American foreign policy blunders that create things like Isis. You really think there's a fundamental difference between Syrians and us? They have shitty luck, that's all.

Things are so bad in Syria now that asking people to stay or return there really isn't feasible. Would you walk back into a burning house to kill yourself because your neighbors have their own problems? We should help evacuate and then put out the fire. It'll burn all our homes down at this rate. European history is rich with such destruction.

[ohaimark]

How would you put out the fire?

[Muirium]

Complex, very complex. It depends which player I was in that game of fantasy geopolitics.

Russia's entry into the Syrian war is big trouble. Our actual leaders are making a real mess of it. We need to fuck up Isis in the language they understand. But the allies we have on the ground there are divided. Russia's siding with the Shia, attacking people we need in the fight against Isis. Turkey's determined never to let a Kurd go unbombed. It's ridiculous. And so it's getting worse.

One thing is for sure: Syria is an apocalypse if you're a civilian. No place for humane people to condemn others to return. When we pretend it is, we lose our humanity. And European history shows us what that leads to, many times. Syrians are the new Jews. Nobody wants them. Yet they live, for now.

[7bit]

...

Holy shit!


The reason why Britain should remain in the EU is access to the common market, not because you can fight terrorists better. I doubt it would make a difference at all (against terrorists), but economically it certainly would!

[7bit]

Complex, very complex. It depends which player I was in that game of fantasy geopolitics.

Russia's entry into the Syrian war is big trouble. Our actual leaders are making a real mess of it. We need to fuck up Isis in the language they understand. But the allies we have on the ground there are divided. Russia's siding with the Shia, attacking people we need in the fight against Isis. Turkey's determined never to let a Kurd go unbombed. It's ridiculous. And so it's getting worse.

One thing is for sure: Syria is an apocalypse if you're a civilian. No place for humane people to condemn others to return. When we pretend it is, we lose our humanity. And European history shows us what that leads to, many times. Syrians are the new Jews. Nobody wants them. Yet they live, for now.

I aggree with everything, except the last 3 sentences!

[Redmaus]

"Open Borders" Policy

What possible good could come form this. Many of these people do not have proper papers and 68% of them are unaccompanied adult males.

Not women and children.

Source: http://www.asylumineurope.org/reports/c ... statistics

A neat thing to do would be to check out Sargon of Akkad from youtube. I like what he has to say even if he covers some topics I find quite pointless. But he is usually on point when it comes to the migrant crisis.

EDIT: This is just Germany I'm talking about. I disagree with Merkels policies.

[Muirium]

Yeah, welcome to the weird and creepy world of what "Britain" really thinks of itself and its place in the world. We're a superpower! No, well, a great power! Well, no, but we're a powerhouse! Hmm, maybe not, but we do have expensive housing… BOW BEFORE OUR FEET, GLOBAL MINIONS!

I say "Britain" because that whole Ukip "Singapore of the west!" fantasy doesn't fly up in Scotland. We're voting heavily to Remain in Europe, and keeping a steely eye on England. A slim win for Leave down there is enough to overrule Scotland. We're used to that. Tory governments and all. But getting torn out of Europe would be an awakening for many unionists up here. Eejits!

[7bit]

Maybe, this would be a chance for Scotland!

I mean, no losing face for Spain if the English don't want the Scots anymore => British Empire out, Scotisch Republic in!

[Muirium]

Ha, maybe. That was the SNP's proposal anyway: that Scotland is already inside the EU so doesn't have to be given permission by every other member as a new country. Spain furiously disagreed. Because Madrid thinks all its anger is really impressing Barcelona they should remain Spanish… ah, family arguments!

Anyway, the Leave campaign is unlikely to get close to winning, even in England. The Remain campaign is a rerun of the argument against Scottish Independence. Or Project Fear as was its perfect official nickname! Fear, uncertainty and bogeymen. I doubt it will be much of a contest. Unlike the Yes movement up here, the Leave EU campaign can't agree on what they want when they're out. And Europe might be many things, but a ruthless bully over London's interest? Hardly. We Scots can tell you what that looks like.

[vivalarevolución]

Interesting to see Noam Chomsky introduced into this thread. I used to be a large admirer and even had a short email exchange back in the day. I heard that he responded to emails, and, surely, he did.

My feelings have not changed on him, simply have lost much of my interest in politics after my work in government has given me a front row seat.

[Muirium]

That's the underlying truth in politics. It's a dull game played by flawed people, like every other. Not quite the room for secret planning meetings by the space lizard Mormon Jewish illuminati. Only in fairytales.

[vivalarevolución]

For a few years now, I've been calling politics a combination of acting and sport for ugly people.

[Muirium]

I've heard it called "celebrity for ugly people", too. But that's bullshit. Celebrity gets you precious little power. And not everyone in politics is ugly. Yulia Tymoshenko comes to mind. As controlling and crooked as can be, but just look at her! They'd never let that fly in Hollywood. Ugly = bad, pretty = good, just like Cinderella.

[Chyros]

The problem with politics, or politicians actually, is that what good politicians are good at is getting elected, not actually governing. The people who would be good at governing aren't good enough at advocating themselves and/or flinging mud so they don't get elected. It's an extremely flawed system.

[ohaimark]

I've heard it called "celebrity for ugly people", too. But that's bullshit. Celebrity gets you precious little power. And not everyone in politics is ugly. Yulia Tymoshenko comes to mind. As controlling and crooked as can be, but just look at her! They'd never let that fly in Hollywood. Ugly = bad, pretty = good, just like Cinderella.

Unless you're a supervillain chick. Then you can be hot.

[Redmaus]

For all the Germans here, what is your honest opinion of Merkel?

[vivalarevolución]

I've heard it called "celebrity for ugly people", too. But that's bullshit. Celebrity gets you precious little power. And not everyone in politics is ugly. Yulia Tymoshenko comes to mind. As controlling and crooked as can be, but just look at her! They'd never let that fly in Hollywood. Ugly = bad, pretty = good, just like Cinderella.

I suppose there are some outliers.

[DanielT]

Well, I have spent 6 months in the heart of EU, these have been the worst 6 months in my life, had a good job and in theory it should have been a dream but it was not. I will have also some very nice memories but in the end I'm happy to be back home. I'm sorry to say but Europe is not ready for EU. EU is becoming something without a face or soul, just a bunch of rules and regulations...
I'm "old" enough to remember the times when you needed a visa, you had to pay import taxes, and my country had a dictator, some things are better now, some not.

[7bit]

For all the Germans here, what is your honest opinion of Merkel?

She is responsible for the light bulbs ban, so my cellar is now full of light bulbs.


More on topic: She can talk well, but we also need a concept about what to do with all those people coming to us. We must take care of them. We can't just let them in and leave them alone.

[seebart]

Well, I have spent 6 months in the heart of EU, these have been the worst 6 months in my life, had a good job and in theory it should have been a dream but it was plain shit. I'm sorry to say but Europe is not ready for EU.

Sorry to hear that Daniel. To sum it up I'd say the EU has grown out of proportion in it's administration and at the same time is a behemoth of a paper tiger. The best example is the refugee crisis now. No solution from Brussels because everyone is doing their "own thing".

For all the Germans here, what is your honest opinion of Merkel?

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[7bit]

Well, I have spent 6 months in the heart of EU, these have been the worst 6 months in my life, had a good job and in theory it should have been a dream but it was plain shit. I'm sorry to say but Europe is not ready for EU.

What was wrong?

[andrewjoy]

Whats Merkel doing with the internet! That needs to go back to Big Ben as soon as possible!

[seebart]

Whats Merkel doing with the internet! That needs to go back to Big Ben as soon as possible!

She might not even know what the hell it is! So as usual the Merkel agenda is: wait and do nothing.

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