Paris

[vivalarevolución]

He is my honest pick for next President, by the way. Not the guy I'd vote for, hell!, but the one I think most likely. He doesn't need to pull out when his poll numbers dip because of backers giving up on him, he just funds himself, there's no other conservative with any appeal up against him, and in a straight fight with Hillary Clinton: a great swathe of America simply will not vote for her.

Ross Perot was the last billionaire to waste a great chunk of change running for the Presidency. The money he sunk on NeXT was much smarter! Perot had some of Trump's strengths, but he was foolhardy enough to run as an independent. Even Jesus himself couldn't win an election if he wasn't on the Republican or Democrat ticket! The electoral college picks the winner, not the votes.

Yeah, I think if it was Trump vs. Hillary, we would see women vote at record rates.

Never underestimate the largest party in America: the habitual non-voters. We only get over 50% of eligible voters to vote in presidential elections, the rest of the time, voting rates are astonishingly low for a "democracy".

[Muirium]

The funny thing about non-voters: they have much the same opinions as regular voters. Parties that count on them to win, don't. And we all know that most votes don't matter in America anyway. Ohio and a few other states might as well spare everyone the bother and do the whole thing alone! California will vote for a baboon so long as she's the democrat. Texas will vote for a walrus if he's GOP.

Hillary has high "negatives" especially among conservative women. That means people know who she is and have already made up their minds about her. She doesn't have much space to grow. I don't think she stands a chance against a popular Republican. As much as fawning Europeans like myself love Obama, Romney and McCain were both poor candidates. There was nothing wrong with Kerry in 2004, he was just up against the Republican machine at full strength. I suspect that machine will be tough again next year. The swing states are inherently conservative, the Republicans dominate them in Congress, and this is why Republicans rule America more often than not.

In our diverse political landscape with no vote threshold they both lack majorities of votes and the willingness of other parties to form a coalition with them. We are stuck with our boring, normally corrupt politicians for the time being. Current coalition is Tories and Labour together ffs.

In local government, that exact thing happens over here. Labour really loathes the SNP, yet here in Edinburgh the two of them work together in a coalition with Labour in charge because they have just one more seat. I've no idea how they held that together. No one notices, or reports on, local stuff. I only hear about it after the fact on Wikipedia. Thank goodness schools, hospitals and transport don't matter or we'd really be missing out…

[SL89]

[
Never underestimate the largest party in America: the habitual non-voters. We only get over 50% of eligible voters to vote in presidential elections, the rest of the time, voting rates are astonishingly low for a "democracy".

The Silent Majority is something that always bothers me, esp because a lot of those people are the ones with the strongest feelings / beliefs / ideologies at times. They just never bother to express themselves because they fell for the apathetic approach.

[fohat]

Never underestimate the largest party in America: the habitual non-voters.

The Silent Majority is something that always bothers me,

The "machine" (and that is exactly what it is) has spent decades training voters to be apathetic and to stay away from the polls because "it doesn't matter anyway" and they have been particularly successful in getting this message to the young people.

[shreebles]

As for numbers, we saw in Paris that it only takes a handful of terrorists to kill a lot of innocent people. [...] The media presents these killings in the context of a war. But there is no Isis army encircling Paris. Only in their propaganda's dreams. Terrorism is a criminal problem. Its causes are political. And our fears are all too capable of blinding us to this.

I know this discussion has shifted a bit since I last left it but man... well put.

[andrewjoy]

Don't even get me started on politics, especial voting.

Look at the mess that is the system in the UK, conservatives win a majority whist percentage of votes goes down!

And then in the US if its trump clinton you have a choice between a retarded rich male sociopath or a rich retarded female hyper progressive.

[seebart]

I'd say Clinton is less retarded than Trump but at least they get a choice. We got one old marge and no option in Germany.

[shreebles]

Don't even get me started on politics, especial voting.

Look at the mess that is the system in the UK, conservatives win a majority whist percentage of votes goes down!

And then in the US if its trump clinton you have a choice between a retarded rich male sociopath or a rich retarded female hyper progressive.

Agree 100%, despite my general sympathy towards the British, as well as good memories having experienced American openness and hospitality first hand, neither are countries I would like to live in at the moment. The former due to their stance on mass surveillance, the latter due to their inability to look outward. In the states, most people worry about american issues only. They are disconnected from the rest of the world.

I'd say Clinton is less retarded than Trump but at least they get a choice. We got one old marge and no option in Germany.

I'd vote for democrats no matter who the candidate is, even if it is Clinton. BUT they will most likely vote Republican, now that they had a bad democrat at the helm...

Even with Merkel as a leader I am glad to live in a country that is at least somewhat progressive, while still being a relevant economic and political player. We don't have as much poverty as some countries down south while not being as conservative and isolated as some of our northern neighbors...

[Muirium]

I'd hate to live in Britain, too, the way it's heading. That's half the reason I want Scottish independence. We're getting there, and we've already banished that nightmarish First Past the Post voting system, besides our wee share of Westminster where we aren't allowed to choose…


@Seebart: Is Sigmar Gabriel really that bad? You should see the 1970s Trotskyist in charge of Labour over here! Had the job for a month or two, and it's already going horribly…

[andrewjoy]

In all honesty i think the idea of an elected parliament is not the best way to go about it. There should be a body of people to do the admin side of things and they are not politicians they are professional admins HR people and so on, the best of the best from public and private sector. Then when an issue needs to be sorted out say blacklisting homeopathy from the NHS ( about fucking time by the way , anyone who thinks it works canget in the sack ), so a bunch of respected real doctors and research scientists discuss and sort it out with real studies and testing. Its like the scientific method but for politics.

What does a career politician know about anything ?

[kbdfr]

In all honesty i think the idea of an elected parliament is not the best way to go about it. There should be a body of people to do the admin side of things and they are not politicians they are professional admins HR people and so on, the best of the best from public and private sector. Then when an issue needs to be sorted out say blacklisting homeopathy from the NHS ( about fucking time by the way , anyone who thinks it works canget in the sack ), so a bunch of respected real doctors and research scientists discuss and sort it out with real studies and testing. Its like the scientific method but for politics.

What does a career politician know about anything ?

I hope you are kidding.
Your proposal is the absolute opposite of democracy.
I’d rather have a real idiot properly elected than a "respected professional" without any legitimation,
because at least the idiot can lose the next election.

[Muirium]

I don't think he is kidding. He's fallen for Ukip's "government by Top Gear" propaganda!

[andrewjoy]

That could be a problem , but would you rather have someone who knows nothing about the subject vote on it , or base the decision of scientific evidence.

The guys that do the admin make no decisions whatsoever, the people who make the decisions are the experts in that field, doctors professors scientists like that, they have no agenda and no power to change anything other than what they are asked to, so a biologist cannot change something to do with transport laws.

All political decisions laws and policy should be based on scientific evidence and NEVER EVER on anyone opinion or someones feelings.

[vivalarevolución]

[
Never underestimate the largest party in America: the habitual non-voters. We only get over 50% of eligible voters to vote in presidential elections, the rest of the time, voting rates are astonishingly low for a "democracy".

The Silent Majority is something that always bothers me, esp because a lot of those people are the ones with the strongest feelings / beliefs / ideologies at times. They just never bother to express themselves because they fell for the apathetic approach.

I've always thought the ones with the strongest opinions are the ones that votes and one of the reasons that the political debate become polarized ins the effort to appeal to the extremes that actually show up to the polls.

And Thanks Muirium for reminding me about the electoral system nonsense! We have a system that allow the presidential election to be decided by only a few districts every year, to remove the candidates from the burden of actually appealing to or paying attention the vast majority of voters. Wonderful.

It's easy to see why people are apathetic in the USA. Here are your two choices, pick the least worse of the two, and if you want more diverse choices, tough break, we'll suppress their voice as much as possible, because the people than own everything are the same people running the political parties.

[chzel]

All political decisions laws and policy should be based on scientific evidence and NEVER EVER on anyone opinion or someones feelings.

You absolutely need experts and scientists and admins. But on a lower level. Giving advise and qualified opinions to the elected MPs and PM, and figuring out how to apply the policies that the elected ones vote for.
But the final decision has to come from a properly elected government.

[kbdfr]

That could be a problem , but would you rather have someone who knows nothing about the subject vote on it , or base the decision of scientific evidence.

The guys that do the admin make no decisions whatsoever, the people who make the decisions are the experts in that field, doctors professors scientists like that, they have no agenda and no power to change anything other than what they are asked to, so a biologist cannot change something to do with transport laws.

All political decisions laws and policy should be based on scientific evidence and NEVER EVER on anyone opinion or someones feelings.

Excuse me, Sir, but…
who is going to choose the learned specialists supposed to have all the wisdom required?

Spoiler:

Probably a circle of learned specialists supposed to also have all the wisdom required.

[andrewjoy]

Giving advise and qualified opinions to the elected MPs and PM, and figuring out how to apply the policies that the elected ones vote for.
But the final decision has to come from a properly elected government.

Thats what SHOULD happen , but in reality they get advice and then ignore it.

[seebart]

@Seebart: Is Sigmar Gabriel really that bad? You should see the 1970s Trotskyist in charge of Labour over here! Had the job for a month or two, and it's already going horribly…

He's not that bad, he is head of a large internally quarrelling party that has not demonstrated leadership qualities for a while. Rather a large coalition is wobbeling along with Angie at the helm doing a mediocre job at best. This situation has been going on for years now. A politically unsatisfactory situation in my opinion.

[bhtooefr]

Regarding the US presidential election, to be honest, the candidate that has the best chance of getting non-voters out to vote is Sanders, and I'm not sure if polling is going to pick that up. He's definitely behind Clinton in polls, but the polls are showing that if he gets the Democratic nomination, he'd beat Trump or Carson.

It'd certainly make things interesting if Sanders actually got the nomination. (And, the way the Republican race is going, if Trump or Carson are still in it by the time Ohio's primary comes around, I'm taking a Democratic ballot and voting for Sanders.)

[shreebles]

This situation has been going on for years now. A politically unsatisfactory situation in my opinion.

Unsatisfactory yes, but let's look at the bright side - we can get away with wimps as politicians because we don't have very grave domestic issues.

[seebart]

This situation has been going on for years now. A politically unsatisfactory situation in my opinion.

Unsatisfactory yes, but let's look at the bright side - we can get away with wimps as politicians because we don't have very grave domestic issues.

Depends on what you considder "grave domestic issues" ? I think we do have problems and challenges.

[andrewjoy]

Regarding the US presidential election, to be honest, the candidate that has the best chance of getting non-voters out to vote is Sanders, and I'm not sure if polling is going to pick that up. He's definitely behind Clinton in polls, but the polls are showing that if he gets the Democratic nomination, he'd beat Trump or Carson.

It'd certainly make things interesting if Sanders actually got the nomination. (And, the way the Republican race is going, if Trump or Carson are still in it by the time Ohio's primary comes around, I'm taking a Democratic ballot and voting for Sanders.)

Sanders is the only one with a ounce of common sense. It honestly does scare me how many people support trump. Mind you clinton is no better , just at the other end of the spectrum.

[Muirium]

Quite how you can think Hillary is more left wing than Sanders, I daren't even ask…

[shreebles]

[...] I'm taking a Democratic ballot and voting for Sanders.)

I just read up on Sanders and Clinton and their political profile seems very similar.

Hilary wants to restrict gun ownership which I would support, while Bernie seems neutral on the issue.

Sanders however wants to avoid foreign entanglements (Good ol' George Washington style? ) while Clinton opposes this.

I would probably still vote for Sanders, because I think the latter issue is more important. But I'm not an American so

Depends on what you considder "grave domestic issues" ? I think we do have problems and challenges.

I agree with you 100% and I could name 20 off the top of my head. However, we are looking at it from the inside. We can see tons of issues. When looking at the big picture, and especially looking at other countries, to me our problems seem smaller.
As some have demonstrated in this thread, the nationalists are on the rise in France and the Netherlands, even in Scandinavia! The swedish democrat party, which is really a nationalist party, has recently surpassed all other parties in polls. They have the lovely slogan "Keep Sweden swedish". Reminds me of what our PEGIDIots have been saying, but those really have a lot more opposition than support.
Meanwhile, Britain wants to create the surveillance state. Mediterranean states suffer from high unemployment (especially youths!), corruption, and a weak economy.

[Muirium]

Germany has got most its shit together. The strong economy always makes everything else easier to resolve. The trouble you guys have got is a building pressure, especially in Bavaria, building up where Germans have unfashionable populist / xenophobic desires, but no way to express them democratically. DanielT mentioned this back on the first page. Something's changing in the people. So far, Merkel makes her immediate neighbours look backward and conservative. But who follows her? What happens when Europe's heart turns far less keen on being European, and more into being only German?

Britain's been there since Thatcher. France is on the edge. And the smaller nations are falling one by one to the Christian Jihadis that pass for ethnic conservatives. This is not a scenario we imagined would even be possible, only a few years ago. But Europe itself could be the casualty of someone else's war.

[andrewjoy]

It alls sucks . You ether have nutjob xenophobes or hyper progressives that want to spoil everyones fun as apparently everything is problematic. Where did all the normal people go ? Is it just that the normal Joe does not get on his soapbox and the people at both extremes are the ones that are the loudest ?

Can someone stop this planet please , i want to get off.

[fohat]

Can someone stop this planet please

The planet is long overdue for a world government in almost any form, even a weak one.

The United Nations does not even remotely approach that definition.

[Muirium]

And the USA was the key architect in making sure it is not. You guys didn't even join the League of Nations after World War 1, despite the fact President Wilson was knee deep in designing the League. Congress rejected it overwhelmingly. We know what happened after WWI. American isolationism is some of the most dangerous stuff on the planet.

[shreebles]

American isolationism is some of the most dangerous stuff on the planet.

But so is American interventionism...?

From the above article
Scholars Robert Pape and James Feldman analyzed all of the more than 2,100 documented cases of suicide bombings from 1980 to 2009 and concluded that most of the perpetrators were acting in response to U.S. intervention in the Middle East rather than out of a religious or ideological motivation.

Spoiler:

[Muirium]

I'd call World War 2 pre-Pearl Harbor several orders of magnitude worse. Post-Versailles Germany was meant to be firmly under control, but without America, the rest of us were too weak to back up our words with action. And so started the greatest slaughter in the history of the world.