Great/Interesting Finds

sean4star · 01 Oct 2014, 18:16

I love the wood and vinyl!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201181393550

Muirium · 01 Oct 2014, 18:51

An Apple ][ playing at being an Apple I, eh? I like the grille:

seebart · 01 Oct 2014, 19:42

Willwas · 02 Oct 2014, 15:35

Looks like a connector for an antenna cable to me (to hook it up to an old tv).

crunch · 03 Oct 2014, 02:04

Never seen Cherry keyboard, says G80-0441 on the PCB

http://www.ebay.de/itm/CHERRY-Tastatur- ... 3f3e1522ab

HzFaq · 03 Oct 2014, 09:32

Now that is a great find...

IvanIvanovich · 03 Oct 2014, 18:39

Cherry XT clone board. Haven't seen one of those for sale before, only in old catalog. Definitely nice collector board.

M'er Forever · 05 Oct 2014, 03:13

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quantalume · 05 Oct 2014, 03:37

M'er Forever wrote: NEW Lynk IBM Lexmark Model M 122 Key + USB Soarer's Converter +Remapping +Macros
NIB, all rivets intact, seems like a spectacular deal with free shipping all for $114.44 (USD)!!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Lynk-IBM-Le ... 418843f11d

I happen to know that he bought those keyboards for less than $XX each. The reason I know this is the person he bought them from offered to sell them to me for $XX each plus shipping, but I didn't move quickly enough. There were 87 of them!

For the amount of profit he's making, he ought to at least pay Soarer a royalty.

[Edit: When I hear "economic cruelty," I usually think of information not shared, such as the wages and working conditions in third-world sweatshops. Nonetheless, I've removed the pricing information so as not to offend anyone in the community.]

M'er Forever · 05 Oct 2014, 03:52

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quantalume · 05 Oct 2014, 04:25

M'er Forever wrote: Why do so many here get so sensitive about someone else making a modest profit? Disclosing what you believe is his cost is especially cruel and certainly not called for IMO.

I don't really care if he makes a modest or even high profit. I've often thought about putting converted Model Ms on eBay myself. What has stopped me so far is the knowledge that Soarer's converter adds a lot of functionality and value to the keyboard, and it only seems reasonable that Soarer benefit in some way for all his hard work and generosity. I've had a mental note for some time to contact him and ask if he would accept a royalty payment and what he would consider reasonable. Perhaps the seller of those Lynk keyboards has already done so.

M'er Forever · 05 Oct 2014, 04:31

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Hak Foo · 05 Oct 2014, 06:51

M'er Forever wrote: Not having ever attempted to use Soarer's converter, I'm presuming they are not free. Doesn't Soarer make anything on the sale of them? If he doesn't, then perhaps he should. No one should ever be ashamed to make a reasonable profit on their work. I know I can't work for free, and I doubt anyone else, other than the already-wealthy, can afford to do so either.

The "converter" hardware is an off-the-shelf breakout-board for an off-the-shelf Atmega microcontroller. You can get name-brand ones for about $25, or off-brand ones for about $8.

What Soarer provided is a firmware for said controller that processes the keyboard. This means that he's not going to be able to easily control the market and ensure he gets a cut, like someone who made a custom PCB they can sell at a profit.

While it might be nice to monetize it in some way for him, I suspect it would turn off a lot of potential users if they had to pay for it up front, especially if they're trying to use it on weird boards that might not work as expected.

Clearly, we just need to set up an endowment to fund people like Soarer and Hasu who do the grunt-work of controller development.

xwhatsit · 05 Oct 2014, 08:56

It's a bit tricky, this whole asking-for-money thing. I must admit I really struggle with it. I've had a number of people (like those I work with and even my wife) ask me why I don't raise the price of my controllers, considering people keep queuing up to buy the things pre-made from me despite me releasing everything open-source. They've got a point too; if I was to add up the amount of time I spend just building and testing each controller (let alone the firmware/programming software/documentation and organising/shipping the orders) I wouldn't come close to half of minimum wage. I'd be far better off sinking my time into more consultancy work where I have no mental block against charging my time at what I'm worth.

The thing that stops me from charging “commercial” or “market” rates for my controllers is that DT (and to some degree GH) feel like a community, where other people are actively trying their hand at “keyboard science” (to borrow a phrase) too. Sure, I've released the source code and the schematics and explained how the capsense stuff works, but it all seems kind of pointless unless these old hunks of steel and plastic actually get used again; and the more people who get the controllers and use their crusty old beamspring or 4704 again the more satisfaction I get. To be sure, it's not a keyboard charity; I am charging more money than the actual parts themselves, and the time I spend organising and building/testing/hacking is at least somewhat enjoyable, otherwise I wouldn't do it. But certainly there's a fair amount of guilt that goes along with setting a price and charging for it, something I don't feel (at least not anywhere to the same degree) for work work.

I think in some ways I'd be happier if all I did was design the controllers and write the software, and other people took care of the building and selling of the damned things. The Amkey-USB controller I've been working on recently has been fun; somebody sent me a keyboard (having three of the things themselves), I send them two controllers and can keep the keyboard if I want. One day when full-blown PCBA becomes as cheap and accessible as PCB manufacture currently is, then I suppose that will be the answer partially.

In short—that guy is charging a lot, and perhaps he should be sending a couple of dollars Soarer's way, but good on him at the same time. Capitalism confuses me

Halvar · 05 Oct 2014, 08:59

Soarer never even set up or communicated a way to donate. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to donate.

The seller of these keyboards had a thread on GH where this was discussed:

... I was asking [Soarer six months ago] if he would be ok with me making pre-built Soarer's converters and I also offered him a commission on each unit sold. He said he was fine with me selling the converters but that he didn't need a commission at all...

Can't verify it but I believe him. I have done some open source software development for fun (quite a while ago though), and I know I never wanted to get money involved, because even when you give something away for free, there are always some dense people who feel entitled to support, updates, installation help or whatever, and this increases considerably if they donate or pay for the software. For me, I liked to support my software, but didn't want my hobby development to feel like a second job. I'm not saying everyone should do it like this, there's nothing wrong at all with profit from software development, I'm merely saying I can relate.

seebart · 05 Oct 2014, 10:46

If he is selling 87 of them it's a commercial venture of sorts. But that's not against the law of course. We all know what's going on here, many "normal" eBay shoppers won't.

andrewjoy · 05 Oct 2014, 13:14

if he truly did ask soarer first and he was ok with it i dont see a problem, if it was me i think i would ask him if he wanted one of the keybords as a thank you but other than that if he is happy i dont see a problem.

seebart · 05 Oct 2014, 13:56

right Andrew, if he asked soarer then it's fine. There's nothing wrong with trying to make some money. HOW people go about doing that is a whole other story. We might see it different because we know about those keyboards, an average buyer might consider that a good deal.
It is a high qualify product after all. Much better than many others.
Anyway look at what some of the big corporations are doing, working with every trick in the marketing book and beyond. Making millions and billions in profits. That's a much bigger issue to me.

Muirium · 05 Oct 2014, 16:00

Quite.

Like a lot of us here, I don't like eBay and its culture one bit. Brag! Mislead! Maximum Profit! It's the antithesis of what us good guys are about. We like to make trades where both sides win, because community matters more than a grim few bucks. Especially, I dare say, over here in Europe where so much of the good stuff is so hard to get to!

Soarer's a gent. His work is all given away for free. (PJRC are the ones to benefit from it financially, and even then I dare say they barely notice us lot compared to the Xbox hacking regulars…) He's not in this for pay at all, and doesn't even have a donation link. I was lucky enough to get to pay him some gratitude when I proxied him a Kishsaver and numpad last year, and spared him a chunk of customs. He deserved a few drinks on me for all the keyboards I've got back in use through his handiwork!

If I were him, I'd make it easier for everyone who wants to send him a few to do the same. But, as Xwhatsit said, some people can get mighty confused when money crosses hands. Even a nominal donation is enough to imply a warranty, for some bloody minded souls. Things stay much cleaner when you're a saint and do all your work for free. There's no doubt whatsoever who's right and wrong then! Money is its own shade of grey.

By the way Tom, your manufacturing controllers for us (as well as designing and coding for them) is a godsend! Your boards are the drop in magic these beamsprings and Model Fs have been looking for since their old dinosaurs croaked. I've dabbled a little with a custom PCB, as you know, and your all-in-one approach is such a relief compared to organising it ourselves. If you ever do choose to get out of the production line, we need someone as skilled to take your place. PCB construction is wizardry to a lot of us here! Soarer was cunning indeed to choose an existing hardware solution to run his converter on. You supply us, through all your effort, the same thing: popped in a bag, keenly waited for in the mail.

Community! Thanks to both of you indeed!

M'er Forever · 05 Oct 2014, 18:36

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Muirium · 05 Oct 2014, 19:18

To be honest, I couldn't care less that this guy does on eBay. Or whatever his balance sheet looks like. People can buy his stuff if they like, or ignore him. No one's forcing him to do the work he does, however much it costs.

The ones who are really adding value to the community, however, are the guys whose work takes on a life of its own. All those restored beamsprings, Kishsavers and AT/XT boards of every description. I'm still amazed at how much good they have done for us, and I'm privileged to work with them, and to help others do so when I can. No payment necessary, for my time either. I do it because I like to.

M'er Forever · 05 Oct 2014, 20:15

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Muirium · 05 Oct 2014, 20:53

Doubt they'd like a godless saint down there in Rome!

I'm not looking for praise. Just describing the culture we have here. We don't owe anything to people who choose to set up hobby shops. But we do owe a lot to Soarer!

Halvar · 05 Oct 2014, 21:01

Indeed. I would even say it's quite uncalled-for to downplay the voluntary contributions of others by calling them "paid for by approval" to establish your own right to ask for more substantial payment.

M'er Forever · 05 Oct 2014, 21:17

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seebart · 05 Oct 2014, 21:17

easily be accused (as I once was on DT) of "desperately seeking approval",

I don´t see how one can be accused of seeking approval? You´re either interested or your not! Who cares?

of despising the profit motive that drives us all

I don´t generally despise profit motives,at a certain scale I tend to get suspicious though. That´s not automatically despising profit motives.It´s not new either.Only thing new is the technology.I definitely do not think that profit motive drives us all.Some of us some of the time,sure.

and which is the basis for the development of all the modern techno-toys we so enjoy

I don´t think that products can be developed solely with profit motive as the drive.That would turn out too much junk.It´s part of the calculation,but not the dominant aspect.I´m sure Apple did not develop the first iPhone 2006 purely with profit in mind.

even though he once accused me of being a liar for temporarily hiding my identity when I called attention to one of my first eBay listings without saying it was mine. I really was only seeking opinions about the listing considering it was virtually a non-profit listing (as were my first dozen or so). As I said back then, anyone who hides their true identity via a false name and avatar is guilty of the same thing, especially when posting mean-spirited comments or offering to sell something for a profit.

I don´t know anything about that particular event,but the way you are writing sounds angry! I have only once had a user here write me "mean-spirited comments", he had a reason and I was acting stupid.I actually flamed that same person here once.That was sad and stupid of me. Mu knows what I´m talking about.He let it slide and I apologised.That´s the main reason I´m here so much. I see little "mean-spirited comments" here at DT.Another forum that I won´t mention now had a lot of that.I never go there anymore.

M'er Forever · 05 Oct 2014, 21:36

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seebart · 05 Oct 2014, 21:47

I didn't post a link to orihalcon's eBay listing only to have someone throw darts at it. I perceived it as an exceptionally good deal and was rewarded for my effort with a cheap shot by quantalume. Perhaps I'll not waste my time in the future by posting anything here. I'm quite sure I won't be missed by all you super-smart folks who already know it all...

well I post a ton here and I think your post was just fine.No problem here.It´s not like your the seller.I think you overreacting a little here.If members here don´t like your post so what?Your post was relevant to the subject,that´s all! How much of a Great/Interesting Find it really is to others is relative in my opinion!

I assure you Apple did not develop the the first iPhone (or any other product) as an act of charity

of course not!Who the hell would do that?!?It´s a calculation.And profit is part of it.That´s how I mean it.

M'er Forever · 05 Oct 2014, 21:51

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quantalume · 05 Oct 2014, 22:16

Part of the problem with communicating on boards is you can't see the other fellow's face, and it becomes difficult to judge emotions. When I posted the information about cost after your post with the eBay link, I was only doing so in the interest of sharing information, not demonizing the seller. Maybe I shared too much information. I've edited the post to remove the pricing. M'er, you can feel to free to remove the same information from your posts, and I don't think anyone will be bothered by it.

Also, perhaps I should have said "I hope Soarer is getting compensated" rather than "he ought to pay Soarer a royalty." My issue is with certain people not getting adequately rewarded for their contributions, not with someone making a profit.