Scottish Independence

[7bit]

Why would Scotland not be in the EU?


If only one of them can remain in the EU, why not Scotland instead of England?


Don't they want to leave anyway?

[Halvar]

Good idea! Let Scotland stay in the EU and have Spain decide if RUK can join or not.

[andrewjoy]

I think the idea is because its technically a new country it would have to apply to join, i have not seen any hard evidence to confirm it ether way.

[Halvar]

Referendum explained for Non-Brits by The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/vid ... rits-video

[seebart]

Less brain, more service: Now FAZ is telling me to stock up on whisky because it might become more expensive as long as an independent scotland hasn't joined the EU yet. Thanks.

That´s awesome Halvar, I mean really good!

Stocking up on whisky is always right, of course.

I´m a modest man myself, I´ll take any one of these...one of each more likely

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I think the idea is because its technically a new country it would have to apply to join, i have not seen any hard evidence to confirm it ether way.

I believe that is correct. Also that process would take some time.

[Muirium]

I think the idea is because its technically a new country it would have to apply to join, i have not seen any hard evidence to confirm it ether way.

This is Europe, there are no rules. Everything gets cobbled together on the fly:

There can be political fixes to several of these potential sticking points in the tradition of the Brussels fudge, perhaps some kind of transitional arrangement put in place between leaving and rejoining. And Scotland would probably be put on a fast track to EU membership. After all, membership bids revolve around negotiations on the 35 chapters of the EU's body of law and regulations – the acquis communautaire. By definition, this entire body of law already applies in Scotland. On the face of it, there is little to negotiate.

But first you have to apply to join. Getting 28 other governments to agree to the membership bid can take a while. Politically, it will be impossible for Brussels to disavow the freely and democratically expressed will of the Scottish people.

But the EU is not a union of citizens, when push comes to shove despite the regular rhetoric from EU leaders. It is a legal construct, a union of states represented by their governments, but bound by legal agreements between states. Any of those 28 other governments will have a veto on a Scottish bid which would also need to be ratified by national parliaments and secure an absolute majority in the European parliament.

Madrid is making it very clear that they hate our guts, and will do everything it takes to block Scottish independence. So we may have to be snuck in through the "didn't actually ever leave" door, anyway. While Madrid and Barcelona squabble over what that means for them.

Lucky Catalans. Spain loves you so much they'll never let you leave, no matter how much you want it!

Anyway, the genie's not quite out his bottle yet. We're voting today, and according to a friend of mine in the Yes campaign who's monitoring the local polling stations: it's a "big fucking turnout", with "A polling station in Muirhouse had more turning out by 10 than in whole day last time". Despite its admirable name, Muirhouse is a notorious shithole on the north of Edinburgh and hardly ever votes in elections. So this is uncharted territory!



Look how far they came since the 1970s…

[seebart]

This is Europe, there are no rules.

No that is incorrect. There are plenty of "rules"...is simply that

Everything gets cobbled together on the fly:

Bingo. If something needs to get done quickly in brussels, their own complex bureaucratic process is simply cut short with whatever tricks necessary.

Madrid is making it very clear that they hate our guts

they only hate your guts NOW because you are stirring up the independence boat bigtime all over the place. Spain. Belgium. Oh I forgot, there are actually quite a few people in the German state of Bavaria that are seriously promoting the seperation of Bavaria from Germany. I would have to cross a border to get ripped off at the oktoberfest in Munich then.And they did not get infected by the scotts now.

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Lucky Catalans. Spain loves you so much they'll never let you leave, no matter how much you want it!

I saw several bits in news about that, I believe that they are quite serious about it. I doubt that will ever happen though. What about those Basque people, their a serious contender and have a history that is really relevant for a case like this.

[Halvar]

Except Bavaria is not and never was a independent state a far as I know, possibly in the middle ages though.

Until 1871 Bavaria was an independent kingdom, then a kingdom within the Kaiserreich until I think the death of Ludwig II (1886).

[seebart]

Until 1871 Bavaria was an independent kingdom, then a kingdom within the Kaiserreich until I think the death of Ludwig II (1886).

That´s how good my german history knowledge is. That is actually not that long ago! But it won´t happen anyway.

I like this idea:

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[Muirium]

My brief understanding of pre-20th century German history is that we (the British Empire, and many other European powers) bravely fought and bargained to keep you separated so we could subjugate you for centuries (when you were in the toothless Holy Roman Empire and onwards) and keep your petty princes squabbling with one another into infinity. It worked jolly nicely until that bastard Napoleon came along, riding through Germany during his World War, and humiliated the whole lot of you at once. Being shamed by the French so badly, the independent spirits of the various German speaking peoples were subdued by the need for some kind of unity so you wouldn't forever be our bitch. It took a while, but eventually someone skilled enough, Bismarck of course, got the reigns of power in Prussia and unified a country so great that, well, you know how it went. I think he was one of the best politicians in history, and his unification agenda was right for that vicious age when war was never far from home. But without him, that centralised power fell to lesser, more George W. -like minds, who couldn't stop themselves from throwing their people into the inferno they lit in the middle of the world.

So, uh, do Bavarians think of themselves as German? How remote does Berlin seem to them? And do they think they've been abused by distant governments? In Scotland, the independence movement really picked up with the magic sequence of: permanent depression + oil discovery + viciously abusive London government (hello Thatcher) + punitive taxes trialled on us by people we repeatedly voted against + our "own party" giving up entirely on its ideology (hello Blair) + being hurled into outrageously stupid and frequent warfare we thoroughly opposed. Even after all that, about half of us are voting to stay in for more!

[seebart]

So, uh, do Bavarians think of themselves as German?

oh they do alright, some of them just don´t like the whole idea anymore. It´s also a finacial factor, they don´t feel like financing poorer German states which they are obliged to by law. "Why pay up for other german losers"? is the sentiment there.

How remote does Berlin seem to them?

Very remote to some! Politically remote that is.So remote that they want to separate!Merkel is too moderate for them.

[Muirium]

I know they have a separately branded Tory party there (CSU instead of the rest of Germany's CDU) although checking the Wikipedia I see it's more of an actual rivalry than merely a branding exercise.

In Scotland, we have a few local parties: Salmond's ruling SNP most notably, along with the Scottish Greens and, briefly, a reasonably popular and red as hell Trotskyite party: the SSP. But otherwise, it's the same ones as England but with "Scottish" shoved in front of the name. When I first voted for the Scottish Parliament, I was horrified that the long ballot of party lists read something like this:

British National Party (fascist)
Scottish Conservatives (aka The Tories)
Scottish Greens
Scottish Labour Party
Scottish Liberal Democrats
Scottish National Party
Scottish Senior Citizens Unity Party (died of old age)
Scottish Socialist Party
UK Independence Party (English Euroskeptics)

Despite voting for independence today, I'm not generally a flag waving lunatic, and I found that array of [NATION] Something Party names as depressing as those idiotic little flag pins American politicians must wear at all times since 9/11 to "prove" they aren't Jihadis. I hope if we do separate, the parties can all spare us their redundant appellations. There's nothing "Scottish" about most of them today, but maybe there will have to be quite soon…

[Halvar]

@Mu: I love that summary of yours ...

From the view of many Bavarians, the German Reich of Bismark and Wilhelm I was actually some kind of an extended Prussia. So while they do feel German, they certainly don't feel Prussian ... Moreover, in the Napoleon part of your summary, the Bavarians actually sided with Napoleon and only changed sides much later when Napoleon was already pulling out.

Today I think secession is more of a running gag in Bavaria than anything serious. As seebart said, it won't happen. Not comparable at all to, say, Catalonia.

[Muirium]

Well, I did say it was a brief understanding! History always descends into indefinite detail, like a fractal, when you look closely. By the way, does anyone, anywhere, still think of themselves as Prussian? Bismarck's era was their golden age, but Stalin chopped off a lot of their territory and scattered them far and wide. If you say "Prussia" to most people nowadays, they think you have a lisp.

[seebart]

ha I love your additional descriptions (died of old age) etc...

those idiotic little flag pins American politicians must wear at all times since 9/11 to "prove" they aren't Jihadis

that´s a really good example. But we all know the US of A is a whole other story. That country changed a lot after 9/11 in my opinion!

@Mu: I love that summary of yours ...

yes it´s the german history accoring to Muirium. I like it! Short and snappy in a scottish way.

I wouldn't know anyway since I never paid much attention in school.

If you say "Prussia" to most people nowadays, they think you have a lisp.

no in German that name is less "lisp-prone".

[Muirium]

Here we go, the Tories are already backtracking from their "Vow" to save the union. You're supposed to wait until tomorrow, amateurs!

Writing in the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald, she warned against giving Scotland "a whole raft of goodies" which would have to be "paid for by us south of the border to try and appease the yes voters".

Correction: appeasing No voters. Yes voters already told you to go shove it.

Talk about feeding an addiction. The more you give them, the more they want, and we would be back with calls for independence within a decade or sooner. For too long the rights of 55 million English have been subordinated to the shouting of 4.5 million Scots. That must end.

I agree entirely. Let us out!

[7bit]

Except Bavaria is not and never was a independent state a far as I know, possibly in the middle ages though.

Until 1871 Bavaria was an independent kingdom, then a kingdom within the Kaiserreich until I think the death of Ludwig II (1886).

The story is very simple:
Ludwig II had basically to make a decision between:
and

To be able to build things like these ...


... and being gay, he had no other choice ...

[Muirium]

Here's an interesting perspective, from Israel:

My memories of Scotland and the Scottish people did not include such vicious hatred. Sure, I had witnessed and experienced instances of out and out anti-Semitism. However, they were far from commonplace. And all the time I lived in Scotland, I never felt threatened or at risk.

But, it appears, the last Gaza conflict has sparked a change.

No shit.

For sure, the country’s foreign policy – laughably touted as being ‘ethical’ – will be hostile to Israel.

I must admit that Scotland's, and especially Edinburgh's, Jewish population is so small I never knowingly met one until I was out of high school. Most of them have left for Israel over many decades, not out of hostility but because of a nationalism of their own.

I have nothing against the people themselves. But I'll grant that many folk may well do. Nothing quite like vicious bombardment of helpless civilians, day after day, all over the news to change the atmosphere.

[7bit]

My brief understanding of pre-20th century German history is that we (the British Empire, and many other European powers) bravely fought and bargained to keep you separated so we could subjugate you for centuries (when you were in the toothless Holy Roman Empire and onwards) and keep your petty princes squabbling with one another into infinity. It worked jolly nicely until that bastard Napoleon came along, riding through Germany during his World War, and humiliated the whole lot of you at once. Being shamed by the French so badly, the independent spirits of the various German speaking peoples were subdued by the need for some kind of unity so you wouldn't forever be our bitch. It took a while, but eventually someone skilled enough, Bismarck of course, got the reigns of power in Prussia and unified a country so great that, well, you know how it went. I think he was one of the best politicians in history, and his unification agenda was right for that vicious age when war was never far from home. But without him, that centralised power fell to lesser, more George W. -like minds, who couldn't stop themselves from throwing their people into the inferno they lit in the middle of the world.

I'm impressed by your knowledge of German history.

So, uh, do Bavarians think of themselves as German? How remote does Berlin seem to them? And do they think they've been abused by distant governments? In Scotland, the independence movement really picked up with the magic sequence of: permanent depression + oil discovery + viciously abusive London government (hello Thatcher) + punitive taxes trialled on us by people we repeatedly voted against + our "own party" giving up entirely on its ideology (hello Blair) + being hurled into outrageously stupid and frequent warfare we thoroughly opposed. Even after all that, about half of us are voting to stay in for more!

Such does not happen here. Germany is not centralistic and many decisions are made by the countries.

I don't believe there is any movement in the direction of splitting away from Germany and there seriously is no need. If the UK would be as de-centralistic as Germany is, there would be no reason for the referendum.

[Halvar]

If the UK would be as de-centralistic as Germany is, there would be no reason for the referendum.

That's true, and I think it's the main reason for Germans to not understand the Scottish Yes camp.

[Muirium]

That's a part of it. But, for all our creaky super centralised London government (still optimised for ruling Burma, India Canada and Africa) we're still separate "nations" in our own mind, as well as flag. Pollsters regularly ask whether people in Scotland identify as Scots or British:

Since 2011 the number of people living in Scotland who picked British as their national identity has risen from 15 per cent to 23 per cent. Over the same period the proportion of people choosing Scottish fell from 75 per cent to 65 per cent.

Nice spin, Daily Torygraph. But 65% is still a good bit larger than 23%! I'm in that majority myself, I don't feel British at all. I don't hate the English (my mum is one for goodness sake! and voting Yes…) but I view them as a neighbour, like France and Ireland, rather than the same place, sharing all the same business.

When Britain was created in 1707, London made a big mistake; to appease the Scottish Parliament, which fled to London while chased by Edinburgh mobs! Instead of creating a new, unified, single nation with one legal system, they let Scotland keep its own, with oversight from London. That "different but equal" concession made sure we'd never truly meld into one identity. The UK they made was more like the EU than the US, even if it is more centralised than either of them…

[andrewjoy]

The whole of the uk would be better de centralised how does some privileged toff who has never left london know how to run the less well off areas in the north ?

[Muirium]

You guys in the north of England get it the worst of all. Same low government spending per head as rich London, while your taxes go to fund us, and with no devolution whatsoever. Tough racket.

If England could be federalised, like Germany, a lot of the institutional problems and inequality in Britain would be addressable. Trouble is, no one wants it. The polls are quite clear on this. (Ever even heard of the English Democrats? England's equivalent to the SNP. Just without any support.) The Germans got their federal "Bundesrepublik" because we and the Americans wrote their constitution for them, and wanted (once again) to hinder unified German power. But English like being English, and British more to the point: poking their noses into other people's business the world over. Even if they're in Newcastle or Liverpool, and it's no benefit to them whatsoever.

I believe the Americans call this "voting stupid", like low income Republicans. Democracy only works when people pay attention!

[seebart]

".. and being gay, he had no other choice ..."

I like the fact that I'm still getting entertainment value out of this thread!

[andrewjoy]

You guys in the north of England get it the worst of all. Same low government spending per head as rich London, while your taxes go to fund us, and with no devolution whatsoever. Tough racket.

If you go can we come with you ?

[Muirium]

It's an open border. Well… until UKIP take you guys, cheering, out of the EU and London has to establish border patrols to keep us foreigners out.

I have my fingers crossed that Berwick upon Tweed will want back in Scotland someday. They're already missing out on sweet, hard cash. Might be a lot more to be said for it tomorrow…

[Muirium]

Election night. It's been a while since I last watched one of these. Booooorrrring. Thank goodness for the internet, and CIndy's IBMs!

It'll heat up once we start getting numbers. Nothing yet. Just plenty of confirmation that it's an all time record turnout, as was obvious on the day.

[andrewjoy]

Usually in an election we get an unofficial poll did something like this not happen on the day ?

[Muirium]

No exit poll. (No one's said why.) So everyone's guessing for real this time, instead of already spinning the numbers they already essentially know, like usual.

The sky high turnout is the wildcard. Without it, No would be very comfortable to win with the last few days opinion polls. But it's a real mystery which way all these people went. Also: makes it damn hard for our good friend Dave Cameron to reject the result if he doesn't like it tomorrow.

[andrewjoy]

"good friend" i hope that was sarcasm

Quite frankly its tough shit if he does not like it there is nothing he can do about it, i only wish local authorities had that kind of power.