
Keyboard layout doesn’t make sense.
- Eszett
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 2 TKL DE MX blue
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 2S
- DT Pro Member: -
Hi! Let me ask something heretical. Why is there a huge capslock key on my keyboard. I’ve never used it in my whole life. And I understand, that some people need two shift keys, but who needs two CTRL keys instead of a single one? And who needs two Windows keys instead of one? The enter key or space key are important keys, and we don’t have two of them. And while the tabulator key may be of use sometimes, where is the back-tabulator key? Where is the copy key, paste key? We have useless keys on our boards, and usefull ones are missing. 

Last edited by Eszett on 19 Mar 2014, 03:26, edited 1 time in total.
- Spearman
- Location: United States
- DT Pro Member: -
Ctrl gets used a fair bit, especially when needing to send special signals into a text terminal where normal keypresses would be interpreted as text. Some early keyboards had Ctrl in the place of Caps lock.
IBM 5150:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:83key.jpg
Apple II:
http://www.digibarn.com/collections/par ... -swyft.jpg
IBM 5150:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:83key.jpg
Apple II:
http://www.digibarn.com/collections/par ... -swyft.jpg
-
- Location: Houston, Texas
- Main keyboard: IBM Bigfoot
- Main mouse: CST trackball
- Favorite switch: IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: -
Eszett, those are all great questions. Everyone uses a keyboard differently, so there's no single layout which everybody would be happy with. Don't try to take the caps lock away from a SQL programmer. Most of them are probably happy to have it where it is. Myself, I'm glad that there are two Ctrl keys and two Alt keys, because I use them almost as much as the shift keys. Would you want only one shift key? My solution has been to buy keyboards with blank caps and then remap to my heart's content.
-
- Location: Stockholm, Sweden
- DT Pro Member: 0011
The modifiers (Shift, Ctrl, Alt/Option, Windows/Command) are on both sides because of the Touch Typing method that is taught in schools.
According to it, you are supposed to press a modifier with the opposite hand to the one that is typing the letter.
Back-tab is Shift-Tab. That is indicated on the Tab key by the back-tab symbol being above the tab symbol. Many people interpret both symbols as being one, when they are in fact two.
Caps Lock stems from typewriters. Back when only one font/size was available, all-caps was often used for headings.
All-caps headings were also used a lot on computers for simple text-files that do not have any formatting.
According to it, you are supposed to press a modifier with the opposite hand to the one that is typing the letter.
Back-tab is Shift-Tab. That is indicated on the Tab key by the back-tab symbol being above the tab symbol. Many people interpret both symbols as being one, when they are in fact two.
Caps Lock stems from typewriters. Back when only one font/size was available, all-caps was often used for headings.
All-caps headings were also used a lot on computers for simple text-files that do not have any formatting.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Mods are mods. Shift, Command, Option, Control: are all useless when pressed alone. They are a different class of key to Q or = or indeed Tab, Return or Space. They emit no character. But they control other characters when pressed simultaneously.
So it does really help to have two of each. Hand gymnastics are something you don't want when typing!
So it does really help to have two of each. Hand gymnastics are something you don't want when typing!
- Kurk
- Location: Sauce Hollondaise (=The Netherlands)
- Main keyboard: Kinesis Advantage // Filco MJ2 + HID liberation
- Main mouse: ITAC Mousetrak Professional
- DT Pro Member: 0027
A truly ridiculous feature of the standard keyboard layout is the horizontal staggering. A remnant of the early mechanical typewriter days and completely superfluous for electronic keyboards.
- Halvar
- Location: Baden, DE
- Main keyboard: IBM Model M SSK / Filco MT 2
- Favorite switch: Beam & buckling spring, Monterey, MX Brown
- DT Pro Member: 0051
Fortunately, keyboard layouts are software and can be changed.
Keyboard layout editor for Windows:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/de-de/goglobal/bb964665.aspx
XKB for Linux:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Howto ... efinitions
Mac OS X:
https://pqrs.org/macosx/keyremap4macbook/
If you're looking for fitting keycaps ... well you're at the right place here too.

Keyboard layout editor for Windows:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/de-de/goglobal/bb964665.aspx
XKB for Linux:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Howto ... efinitions
Mac OS X:
https://pqrs.org/macosx/keyremap4macbook/
If you're looking for fitting keycaps ... well you're at the right place here too.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Indeed. Check out symmetric stagger, matrix boards, even the ErgoDox.
Caps Lock is way too high profile for modern use. (It should be where Scroll Lock is or some other place out of the way.) But the mods are the least illogical parts of a historical mishmash of typewriter conventions that makes the keyboard what it is.
And of course QWERTY itself.Kurk wrote:A truly ridiculous feature of the standard keyboard layout is the horizontal staggering. A remnant of the early mechanical typewriter days and completely superfluous for electronic keyboards.
Caps Lock is way too high profile for modern use. (It should be where Scroll Lock is or some other place out of the way.) But the mods are the least illogical parts of a historical mishmash of typewriter conventions that makes the keyboard what it is.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Symmetric stagger + split keyboard + tenting in action:

If you touch type, symmetric stagger helps your left hand reach Q and Z (on QWERTY) like how your right hand finds P.

If you touch type, symmetric stagger helps your left hand reach Q and Z (on QWERTY) like how your right hand finds P.
- Vierax
- Location: France (Lille)
- Main keyboard: Tipro MID KM128 Bépo layout
- Main mouse: Kensington Orbit Trackball
- Favorite switch: MX Clear / MX Grey (under thumbs)
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Ah the μtron… sadly the price is insane, mostly because of Topre. I would like to see almost the same layout with MX or ALPS.
IMHO the best way to have a universal using is to have a programmable board : even developer's symbols fluctuate a lot because of the differences of syntax between the programming languages. Escape is very important with Vi-like behaviour programmes. F1-12 needs a direct access for terminal switching in Linux (maybe in the whole Unix family? ) so everybody doesn't have the same expectations.
IMHO the best way to have a universal using is to have a programmable board : even developer's symbols fluctuate a lot because of the differences of syntax between the programming languages. Escape is very important with Vi-like behaviour programmes. F1-12 needs a direct access for terminal switching in Linux (maybe in the whole Unix family? ) so everybody doesn't have the same expectations.
- Grendel
- Location: Corvallis, OR, USA
- Main keyboard: CM Storm Quickfire XT MX Green
- Main mouse: Logitech G9
- Favorite switch: MX Ghost Blue
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Hurrah for mod-keys -- Shift-TAB = back tab (as written on the key), Copy/Paste depends on the OS or even the specific software you are using. Windows has it streamlined somewhat: Ctrl-Ins or Ctrl-C = Copy, Shift-Ins or Ctrl-V = Paste.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Indeed. So elegant, you have to wonder where they came from…
http://daringfireball.net/2014/01/special
http://daringfireball.net/2014/01/special
- Eszett
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 2 TKL DE MX blue
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 2S
- DT Pro Member: -
@findecanor All you say is true. It is taught to use a modifier with the hand you aren’t typing at the moment. But on the other hand I spoke about the doubled win keys, and win keys aren’t modifiers. 

- Grendel
- Location: Corvallis, OR, USA
- Main keyboard: CM Storm Quickfire XT MX Green
- Main mouse: Logitech G9
- Favorite switch: MX Ghost Blue
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
They are in Windows and other systems.Eszett wrote:But on the other hand I spoke about the doubled win keys, and win keys aren’t modifiers.

- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Command remains the primary mod on the Mac, right since the beginning. When Apple switched to USB keyboards in 1998, it used the same scancode for its extra mod as the recently introduced Windows key. While that meant PCs and Macs could use USB keyboards interchangeably, it has meant Alt<>Windows swaps on mechanicals for Mac users ever since. Can't go without your mods!
-
- Location: Isle of Man
- Main keyboard: Kinesis Advantage
- Main mouse: 3M Vertical
- Favorite switch: MX Brown
- DT Pro Member: 0009
I remapped my caps lock to backspace, others have remapped it to Ctrl. You can go further and implement sands (shift and space) where the space bar can be used to produce a space, but if you hold it down and press another key, it will act as shift.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Multi modal keys like that are what draw me to Hasu's firmware.
As for alphas: Colemak looks the way to go. And it is built into modern operating systems.
As for alphas: Colemak looks the way to go. And it is built into modern operating systems.
- Spearman
- Location: United States
- DT Pro Member: -
It doesn't bother me for normal typing, but I could never use an imbedded numpad (as in laptop keyboards like thinkpad) with the .5 unit staggering on rows 1 and 4. I think I'd like to try something like this:Kurk wrote:A truly ridiculous feature of the standard keyboard layout is the horizontal staggering. A remnant of the early mechanical typewriter days and completely superfluous for electronic keyboards.
Spoiler:
- Eszett
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 2 TKL DE MX blue
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 2S
- DT Pro Member: -
Staggering is another disease, yes.
And to mention another disease: some of you guys like to attach a red keycap for escape, but who uses the escape key, for what? In our modern times, I would expect that some button called “escape” closes the current window / process. This is what we need pretty often. So, basically spoken, I miss an Alt-F4-key, and then a red keycap would make sense! And since I’m a Windows user I would expect such a red Alt-F4-key in the upper right corner of the keyboard, analog to that we close a window with clicking the little cross in the upper right corner of a window. That would make sense! For my understanding of an intuitive layout, at least.
And to mention another disease: some of you guys like to attach a red keycap for escape, but who uses the escape key, for what? In our modern times, I would expect that some button called “escape” closes the current window / process. This is what we need pretty often. So, basically spoken, I miss an Alt-F4-key, and then a red keycap would make sense! And since I’m a Windows user I would expect such a red Alt-F4-key in the upper right corner of the keyboard, analog to that we close a window with clicking the little cross in the upper right corner of a window. That would make sense! For my understanding of an intuitive layout, at least.
- Vierax
- Location: France (Lille)
- Main keyboard: Tipro MID KM128 Bépo layout
- Main mouse: Kensington Orbit Trackball
- Favorite switch: MX Clear / MX Grey (under thumbs)
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
As far as I know, the Escape key is strongly used for vim and it's the pause/start key in a majority of games.
I use it myself a lot (in addition of the menu key and arrows) when I want to quit the contextual right-clic menu that I use when I want to correct my sentences during typing sessions (in Firefox and Thunderbird) where taking the mouse slows the redaction.
I placed this key in the center of my Tipro, near Tab, Del and Bksp and this location is nice.
I use it myself a lot (in addition of the menu key and arrows) when I want to quit the contextual right-clic menu that I use when I want to correct my sentences during typing sessions (in Firefox and Thunderbird) where taking the mouse slows the redaction.
I placed this key in the center of my Tipro, near Tab, Del and Bksp and this location is nice.
- Eszett
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 2 TKL DE MX blue
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 2S
- DT Pro Member: -
@Vierax The win key opens a win menu, and when pressed again it closes the win menu, logically. That is what I would expect for the app key as well. Awkward that escape is used for this. And you said escape is used for pc games. Indeed. Nevertheless, we are still missing the "real escape" key, i. e. the Alt-F4-key.
- Spearman
- Location: United States
- DT Pro Member: -
Escape seems to be used to clear current selections or return to the 'main' window in certain GUIs. It's a bit inconvenient for use in vim, so usually I use Ctrl-C which has the same binding.
As for closing windows/programs, Alt-F4 seems to work accross both Windows and Linux (Mint), but I tend to use Ctrl-Q when it's available (I believe the command in Mac OS is something like Cmd-Q).
As for closing windows/programs, Alt-F4 seems to work accross both Windows and Linux (Mint), but I tend to use Ctrl-Q when it's available (I believe the command in Mac OS is something like Cmd-Q).
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Yes, Command+Q quits the current application on the Mac, while Command+W closes the current window. I believe Windows/Linux's Alt+F4 does them both, as apps are bound to windows on other platforms.
A single key to do this would be quite destructive. Closing apps destroys their undo stack and so no undo for you if you pressed it by mistake. I get why you'd want one for Alt+F4 though: that's a combo that only Microsoft could have created! Switch it to Control+Q and you're done.
A single key to do this would be quite destructive. Closing apps destroys their undo stack and so no undo for you if you pressed it by mistake. I get why you'd want one for Alt+F4 though: that's a combo that only Microsoft could have created! Switch it to Control+Q and you're done.
- bhtooefr
- Location: Newark, OH, USA
- Main keyboard: TEX Shinobi
- Main mouse: TrackPoint IV
- Favorite switch: IBM Selectric (not a switch, I know)
- DT Pro Member: 0056
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The missing piece of the puzzle, however, is Ctrl-F4.
So, when Multiple Document Interface was adopted in Windows 2.0, that shortcut was added.
The Mac model actually behaves like MDI. You start applications that have child windows, and as of OS X (the Classic versions that I'm familiar with had very poor keyboard support), Cmd-Tab switches between applications, Cmd-Q closes applications, Cmd-` switches between windows within an application, Cmd-W closes windows within an application.
MDI on Windows (and some web browsers obey this)... Alt-Tab switches between applications, Alt-F4 closes applications, Ctrl-Tab switches between windows within an application, Ctrl-F4 closes windows within an application.
So, when Multiple Document Interface was adopted in Windows 2.0, that shortcut was added.
The Mac model actually behaves like MDI. You start applications that have child windows, and as of OS X (the Classic versions that I'm familiar with had very poor keyboard support), Cmd-Tab switches between applications, Cmd-Q closes applications, Cmd-` switches between windows within an application, Cmd-W closes windows within an application.
MDI on Windows (and some web browsers obey this)... Alt-Tab switches between applications, Alt-F4 closes applications, Ctrl-Tab switches between windows within an application, Ctrl-F4 closes windows within an application.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Correct. Mac apps that quit when you close their window are an oddity on OS X, and usually lightweight utilities.
App switching (and if I remember window switching too) was a mess in the Classic days. Multitasking was implemented without Steve Jobs or the original Mac team around, and was inevitably a kludge until OS X brought NeXT's version in.
App switching (and if I remember window switching too) was a mess in the Classic days. Multitasking was implemented without Steve Jobs or the original Mac team around, and was inevitably a kludge until OS X brought NeXT's version in.
- Eszett
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 2 TKL DE MX blue
- Main mouse: Logitech MX Master 2S
- DT Pro Member: -
Thanks for inspiration with this Ctrl-F4 / Ctrl-w thingie. I’ve remapped [Pause] key to invoke Ctrl-w, i. e. quit current sub window; and [Scroll] key to invoke Alt-F4, i. e. quit current application or process. It feels right to have those functions placed in the upper right corner of my KB. Now I need two suitable keycaps, perhaps one in orange and the other in red …
Regarding “SpaceShift”: the idea is brillant and tempting. Tonight I sat 8 hours writing and debugging a script for it. However, I finally realized that there is an inherent flaw, which hampers fast and fluent typing. For example, when we write “a b”, we sometimes hit the before releasing [space], which normally isn’t a problem. But “SpaceShift” won’t allow that, it will result in “aB”. You are forced to type pokingly, and this isn’t an option for me. Therefore, sadly, I’ve discarded the concept of “SpaceShift”.
Regarding “SpaceShift”: the idea is brillant and tempting. Tonight I sat 8 hours writing and debugging a script for it. However, I finally realized that there is an inherent flaw, which hampers fast and fluent typing. For example, when we write “a b”, we sometimes hit the before releasing [space], which normally isn’t a problem. But “SpaceShift” won’t allow that, it will result in “aB”. You are forced to type pokingly, and this isn’t an option for me. Therefore, sadly, I’ve discarded the concept of “SpaceShift”.
Last edited by Eszett on 23 Mar 2014, 13:52, edited 5 times in total.