Bit of a pickle

[IonutZ]

Hello fellow keyboardists,

Sorry for the long post.

Having said that, I found your community last night while I was extensively researching new keyboards... I spent 4 hours last night, woke up this morning at 630 am, it is now 440 pm (EST) and this whole time I've been researching keyboards... I'm tired of this, I need some resolution... lol!

Needless to say this happens every time I buy a keyboard (never to this extent however). I need a second opinion.

My history of mechanical keyboards is as follows:

1993-2003 IBM Ms back in the day which unfortunately I do not possess anymore ;(
2003-2010 Moved to USA where the dome craze started and the computer I bought came with a garbage rubber dome keyboard to which I did not protest for I had other issues to worry about
2010-2012 My financial situation improved significantly in the past decade so I went with a Razer Blackwidow with MX Blues, (after trying a Corsair K90 whose backlight LEDs started dying within the first week, known issue) - really enjoyed those switches on the Blackwidow, broke a few of them and replaced them myself
2012-2013 Because of lack of macro keys (only 5 on the blackwidow) and another round of extensive research, I decided to go with a Logitech G710+ (6x3 macro keys, backlighting) with MX Brown switches (which is what I'm currently using)

I just got a job last week in an office environment [a cubicle, (most people around me are developers/coders)]. I hate the dell keyboard they gave me over there and decided to take the G710+ to work yesterday and everyone really appreciated the keyboard... my position as a technical business analyst will involve a lot of typing (so I'm moving away from the "gaming" keyboards). While it would be nice to have macros, I would much rather have a nicer typing experience.

I cannot go with MX Blues because they're way too loud and I'm afraid I would be bothering the others, so that's out of the question even though, they would have probably been my favorite to go with. I could go with MX Browns but these feel like there's something missing - it leaves the typing experience unsatisfied for me (on the G710+).

I know that Filco makes amazing products and I considered a Quickfire Stealth TKL vs a Filco Ninja Majestouch-2 TKL both with Browns. I'm not sure how I feel about the TKL... I've always had a numpad... do I use it a lot? No... but I do use it sometimes. Is that going to mess up my workflow when I'm writing requirements as a technical business analyst? Since I was undecided about the TKL issue, I'm considering the QFR Stealth TKL and not the Filco which is 3 times the price and not 3 times as good. (If I do go the TKL route, and I like the QFR, I will most definitely get a Filco TKL in a year).

I read about Cherry MX Clear switches which sound like they are what is missing for me in the Browns. The only thing is the only keyboard I found that I can buy with MX Clear is the Deck Legend (which I would get in Frost (white backlight) because that blue is too obnoxious for the work place, and backlighting isn't even a requirement). In any case this item is priced at around $200... the font on the keys is horrendous, a new set of caps is around $100 and most likely not backlit.

My next thoughts went to Topre... their capacitive switches sound like "the best switch money can buy." However, these come with quite the price... $300 for a Realforce? I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting the importance of "THE MAIN INPUT" but I'm not gonna have a $300 keyboard at home, and I'm gonna take one and leave it at work??? + What friggin keyboard is worth $300? Unless the pcb is made out of gold I just don't see the justification for paying that much. So then there's the alternative Topre Type Heaven...

I decided to go with PBT for keycaps... for durability's sake. And the layout is 104 US ANSI - A MUST. I believe all my choices are NKRO.

These are the keyboards I'm considering:

TKL:
CM QFR Stealth $70
Pros: everyone says it's good

Filco Majestouch-2 Ninja $200
Pros: the brand, good construction; cons: expensive, consensus is 10% improvement over QFR... doesn't justify x3 price, super long shipping time from Japan to USA

Full size:
Deck Legend - Frost (Cherry MX Clear) $200
Pros: MX Clear switches, backlight; Cons: UGLY, expensive

Ducky DK9008G2 Pro Light Grey & White (Cherry MX Brown) $140
Pros: the brand is good, the key layout and keycap sizes for R4 is STANDARD; Cons: don't have any terms of comparison, don't know build quality

Topre Type Heaven $170
Pros: Topre switches; Cons: Topre switches... I really don't know how these feel, and from what I hear, the construction of this keyboard is not as good a quality as the Realforce - I don't know how it compares to the Filco for example

Filco Majestouch-2 Ninja $200 (Cherry MX Brown)
Pros: the brand is good; cons: not MX Clear for this price..., super long shipping time from Japan to USA

On another note, I found 2 keyboards on craigslist that someone's selling: a NMB RT2900TWIL and Keytronic FKD46Ak5300 (for $10 both haha) - couldn't really find any info about either of them here so I'm guessing they're probably not worth much... I did find this lol, I thought this was funny: http://www.ambry.com/RT2900TWIL.html

From a budget standpoint, I'm a stickler for quality - I don't mind paying $200 if I know that it's going to be worth it; I don't think paying $300 for the Realforce is worth it - unless my fingertips have microorgasms whenever I touch those keys.



Well this is the issue that I'm faced with... I'm almost inclined to say to hell with all of this, go to bestbuy and buy another G710+ and call it a day... I've wasted 40% of my weekend on this already lol... this is unacceptable!!!

Thanks for your help in advance

[webwit]

That's quite a list of keyboards you have to buy in order to discover your personal preference.

[IonutZ]

Trolololol thanks dude! lol, I'm gonna get on that right away. On another note, the craigslist guy just sent me a picture of another keyboard he found, brand new, Cherry G84-4100 $5.

[Ekaros]

What about G80-3000?

Should be able to find one with clears and it's not very highly priced.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

For extensive, continuous typing (writing articles, long e-mails etc), I find MX brown the most comfortable, as it's subtle and stays out of your way, but has just enough tactility to not have a spongy linear feel. You're not wrestling with the switches, but neither are you tapping a rigid surface. It can however require months of acclimatisation if you're used to 60+ g switches.

However, if there is any hesitation in what you're typing, you might feel that you need more reassurance from the keyboard and prevention of accidental presses. Achieving that firm tactile feel without feeling the grinding of mechanical parts is quite hard to achieve. (If you remove the actuator leaf from an Omron spring, you get an amazing feel that bests buckling spring, but then it won't work …)

It's hard to take rubber switches seriously, but when you're hitting things with your fingers repeatedly and rapidly, having rubber in the switch actually makes sense, and Topre have managed to achieve this with virtually no compromises. You get the best feel of any rubber dome, firm but smooth, a reduced weight, mid-travel actuation (bottoming out not required) and a rock solid, heavy keyboard without all of the creaking and rattling you get with cheap boards.

The Matias Quiet Pro gives you the perfect weighting—exactly what MX brown should have been but never was or ever will be—but the switches have a slightly gritty, juddery feel. (However, as I mentioned, I like MX brown for what it is, but most people would prefer it to be more meaty, and that's what Matias quiet switches give you.) Matias quiet switches are the only premium switch I've ever been able to use out of the box without weeks or months of adjustment: the weighting is "Goldilocks".

And MX clears? They're altogether different. Once you pass the tactile cliff, the switches don't drop, as the force shoots right up to 100 g. It's a very odd switch, but given some time, you come to really like them, but they're still odd — you have to learn to let go after actuation to prevent feeling the heavy, mushy linear part of the force curve. Clears are not a "fixed" MX brown — that would be Matias. Topre and Matias are still more natural and "obvious".

[IonutZ]

@Ekaros - G80-3000 has MX Clear switches?? There's a bunch on ebay for less than $100. Seems like all of them for sale have MX Blue switches...

@Daniel Beardsmore - thank you so much for the info, looking into the Matias Quiet Pro right now. How do you feel about the Matias Tactile Pro?

[Ekaros]

G80-3000 comes with Black, Blue or Clear to my understanding. Atleast the one I'm currently using has Clears...

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_article_numbers

For info about decoding them. LQCUS or LQCEU atleast I think are Ansi Clears with PS/2/USB and Lasered caps.

[IonutZ]

There's exactly 4 results on Google for "G80-3000LQCUS" and none for "G80-3000 LQCUS" I don't think I'll be able to find that very easily lol... I want the US ANSI 104key if anything...

[Findecanor]

There's a bunch on ebay for less than $100. Seems like all of them for sale have MX Blue switches...

Look for a five-letter code at the end of the article number. If the second letter is a Q, then it has Clear switches.

I have also seen Ducky keyboards with MX Clear switches: Ducky Shine II with white or purple backlighting, and a version with side-printed "shadow caps" like the Filco Ninja.
Beware that there are also some weird hybrid models with different switches on different keys.
Ducky's new keyboards have a good reputation. I have only heard complaints about some early models they released a few years ago.

The Cherry G80-3000's switches are PCB-mounted and the Ducky's are plate-mounted. The PCB-mounted are much easier to open and mod if you want "Ergo Clears" - but more and more people are liking the original clears as they are. Do type on the clears extensively for one or two weeks before considering modding.
For dampening the sound on bottoming out with minimal impact on travel distance, use 3/16" "medium" "orthodontic elastic bands" for original Cherry/GMK keycaps and the red O-rings from WASD Keyboards for other keycaps. Signature Plastics' keycaps can not be dampened. Some people also put foam inside their Cherry G80 keyboards as the large cases are a bit like resonance chambers..

[IonutZ]

Findecanor, thanks for your reply, I looked for the Q models, but all that's available is LQCDE (german) or LQCEU (european iso), there's no mention of LQCUS anywhere, so I don't think they make a US ANSI model of it might still have some of those elastic bands around ;D haha thanks for the tips!!

But if there's no US ANSI model I don't think I can go with the G80 for MX Clears...

[Daniel Beardsmore]

@Daniel Beardsmore - thank you so much for the info, looking into the Matias Quiet Pro right now. How do you feel about the Matias Tactile Pro?

I never had the dust and smears problem others have reported. The layout sucks — no right Windows key or menu key, and I use both. Switches aren't bad — less fussy people will find them to be what MX brown was meant to be but never was. Personally I think I prefer Topre :) Topre is a bit soft and squishy though, possibly why people prefer the 55 g switches over 45 g. It's always nice to go from Topre variable back to MX brown, as the latter is so precise-feeling, but it's also on the light side.

I've not found a perfect switch so far, but Topre is certainly tolerable. I used to find that I made the least mistakes with it, but now I'm having SHift problems with it now, probably from not having readjusted properly. (I've been back on Topre at work for a month or more now, instead of my MX brown Filco.)

[Vierax]

Hi !

A thing you can do is buying an ANSI model of any mx available (browns preferred) buying some MX Clears to 7bit in this forum and changing keys. As Cherry board are PCB mounted, you are able to open them without any desoldering process. You may need to open the case to access them easily and it's IMHO the most difficult part with the no-screw design (instead there is some tricky clips in the top of the rear panel)
I like Clears a lot but after a year I still think they are too strong for pinkies and I putted browns instead under those fingers (I didn't feel the difference between clears and ergoclears…)
At your place, I'll probably go with a Matias ALPS since it's a ready-to-use and a great quality product.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Ah, a Cherry MX variable weight!

[urbanus]

Ah, a Cherry MX variable weight!

Variably weighted MX works well in my experience. I've done it twice:

• CM Storm QFR with vintage Wyse blacks. I put red springs into the "pinkie" keys.
• Cherry G80-3494 with clears of various weights. In the main typing area most of the keys are "panda" (black springs) except for the pinkies which are "ergo" (red springs)

Modding the Cherry board was obviously much easier since no desoldering was involved (PCB mounted of course).

My criterion for variable weighting is that when touch typing, the feel should be seamless: you should get a subjective impression of equal effort with no strain on the pinkies. That's been my personal experience with Topre variably weighted, and I'm pleased that I've been able to get good results from MX as well.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Yeah, Topre variable weighting seems perfectly natural, but then, I never felt that pinkie keys were stiffer on normal keyboards, nor do space bars feel any more or any less stiff whether they do or do not have a different switch (Alps and Alps clone keyboards for example generally don't, that I know of). It did take me a while to get used to Topre: my first impression was something like "yuck, really stiff domes". Now I rather like Topre, but it's not heavenly to me.

[IonutZ]

I really appreciate the feedback guys, I'm actually a piano player and I've never felt anything too hard on my pinkies, but then again writing this I notice that I don't really use my pinkies very much except for hitting the shift key and ' on the right side, other than that it seems that fingers 1-4 on my left hand seem to do most of the work with 1L hitting the space bar and 2-5 on my right, with 4 predominantly taking over the right side of the keyboard. I still achieve speeds of over 70wpm... I'm guessing this isn't very standard typing (as you're supposed to use all 5 fingers for optimal performance correct?)

How do I find out whether a keyboard has PCB mounted cherries or not? The MX Blue switches I replaced on the Razer Blackwidow were most definitely soldered to the board...

@Daniel, so you're saying I should limit my choices to the Topre Type Heaven and Matias Quiet Pro?

What's the general consensus on TKLs? Coming to think of it, I do have a 87 key bluetooth mac keyboard where I never cared for much for the numpad to be honest... it just seems weird to use a TKL in a Windows environment.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

TKL is extremely popular. I can see why, but I just like my number pad. It depends entirely on whether you have a user for the number pad; if you don't, then get rid of it, as it's a waste of space. I use a third-party keyboard layout plus an AutoHotkey script to achieve extended ASCII/Unicode entry anyway, instead of the stupid number pad alt+0NNN codes.

For commercial keyboards you can assume plate mounted. PCB mount is used by Cherry and by some of the community keyboards such as the original Poker.

As others have already pointed out, it's personal preference. I am inferring that, like many, you want a more meaty tactile switch. Cherry MX clear is quite tactile and good fun, so don't rule it out. In the end you just have to buy one of everything to know for certain whether you're missing out on a better option. Trouble is, having tried that, I'm still not 100% satisfied with anything yet =) Some people will settle on their perfect switch, others won't, and some are even designing new switches. Even for Topre, some people are only satisfied with heavier Topre switches (weight is proportional to tactility, with 55 g being more like Alps, and 35 g being limp and squishy, which isn't really noticeable in a variable weight board).

[Muirium]

Ah, another pinkie-less typist! Join the club. I manage the same speed as you with a similar arrangement. My hands move around a lot more than a true touch typist's, but I always know where they are anyway. Home row is where they start and finish, but they're very often all around town through the day!

Now for switches. First up: PCB mount vs. plate mount is easy to tell. Are the switches clipped into a metal plate above the PCB? PCB mount is simply the absence of a plate. The switches need to be supported by something while we bash keys, and a plate is the traditional, rock solid way to do it.PCB mount is a fair bit more flexible, but some people like it. It's certainly lighter. PCB mount switches have a few extra plastic supports on them for extra seating on the PCB.

I'm surprised to hear people saying you can swap switches on a PCB mount keyboard without desoldering. They're still soldered to the PCB, surely? Anyway, plate mount switches are surely more bother to swap or mod.

Switch modding: things like "ergo clear" and "panda clear" are mods where you open the individual switches and swap in different springs. I'm heavy handed and too nervous to try it myself. But there's a lot of experimentation to be had with those. Cherry MX switches are highly moddable.

But my suggestion?

Well, I do love a bit of Topre. Only recently tried one (a week's loan of a full size ANSI Realforce) and they are just gorgeous. Overpriced? Sure. But there's a reason they can sell them at that much. I find them ideal for fast, prolonged typing. The smoothest tactile switches anywhere. Indeed, I've got my eyes on an HHKB now. But the Realforce TKL and full size are premium boards too. No need to upgrade caps after purchase, unlike so many Filcos, Duckies etc. Good job too: there's far less Topre mount caps out there to choose from. MX definitely has the world of caps all stitched up.

As for Cherries, I'd say try clears. They're the tactile MX I have the most respect for. Browns feel like gritty reds to me and many people. Not enough bump, ergo "ergo clears", where a clear switch is modded with a lighter spring to bring it into brown territory. But honestly, I prefer Cherry's linear switches to the tactiles. If you can get a hands on test with several keyboards, give red and black a shot. Both of them are more to my liking, for what that's worth. Smooth and battle hardened to off-axis presses (aka real life use).

Matias are worth a shot, too, but like Topre there's much less choice in keyboard variety there. However, unlike Topre, that choice is generally all low end instead of high. There's much more to a keyboard than just the switches, of course.

And finally, what I actually type on: good old IBM buckling spring. A working man's Topre! Smooth and linear, with the added snap of sharp tactility near the bottom of the stroke. Love 'em to bits. And if you can bear a full size keyboard on your desk, they're the most bang for the least buck around. My current keyboard cost me all of £30 delivered (in the United Kingdom of Ripoffs and No Complaints Please, of all places) with quality, unused dyesub PBT caps and full programmability including macros, thanks to Soarer's USB converter.

Something to bear in mind: keyboard odysseys can get expensive fast. That's why I'm on buckling spring! If you are thinking of going through a few different Cherry switch boards though, I'd advise just taking the money to a single Topre instead. Could save you a lot of time. And if you don't like it, they sell pretty damn quickly when in good condition.

Hey, where's RJ? He should be saying all this, having done it all the last few months!

[IonutZ]

Woah, I can't believe how helpful you guys are being... I made the same post at GH and those guys haven't even approved it yet lol... definitely sticking with you guys. I suppose I'm going to have to reconsider the Realforce in that case.... and somehow get it chained to my desk. Aren't buckling springs loud?

My next question was going to be on Black and Red Cherries... aren't they mainly for gaming? That's the reason I always excluded them from my research because I thought you wanted the "resolution" of having hit the key and it responding with a bump (tactility)...

Also when it comes to Topre... I haven't yet seen any individual switches... Cherry MXs are really easy to repair / replace if anything. How does one approach repairing a Topre keyboard? It would be really inconvenient if Topre was the only one doing the repair.

It definitely sounds like it would be easier to acquire a Cherry MX Brown keyboard like a QFR (because it is readily available and I don't have to wait 3 weeks for it to get here) and change some 30 switches to Cherry MX Clears. Say I wanted to add a couple of LEDs... from what I remember the MX Blues that I replaced on the Blackwidow didn't have LED placeholders, would I have to drill those in the MX Clear switch?

[IvanIvanovich]

Cherry replaced US with the EU code a few years ago now. Both are identical ANSI except the EU has a Euro legend which is fairly irrelevant, no idea why they felt they needed to rename it. There are also other ANSI models with clear from Korea if you don't mind some sub legends, like the G80-1867LQCKO or G80-3497LQCKO.

There are also some clear switch keyboards available from Keycool.

[IonutZ]

IvanIvanovich those Keycool 87s look very nice, could you compare the build quality with the CM Storm QFR or the Filco Majestouch 2? TKLs

[Muirium]

Keycool is definitely in the "okay" range for build quality and looks, below Filco and Ducky and a whole different league from Topre. Don't know how it compares to a QFR, neither appeal to me enough to try. But to be fair, they're probably perfectly capable keyboards. We're talking about fit and finish rather than actual function.

And yes, buckling spring is loud. I forgot you wanted a quiet switch after having read through the thread!

Cherry MX red and black (they only differ in spring strength) are useful beyond gaming. Black was in fact the original MX switch. Until the mid 80s very almost all keyboards were linear besides IBM, including legendary boards like MIT's Space Cadet. Linear is popular for gamers because it has no hysteresis (you can jab them repeatedly really fast without the mechanism fighting against you) but it wasn't invented for them. Linears are some of the nicest switches around, and most popular on Cherry's own G80 keyboards, where MX black is still the default.

As for LED holes: all MX switches have them. Here's an MX clear.

And even the exotic MXLOCK:

[IonutZ]

Thanks Muirium. I'm most likely going to find some MX Blacks in the 10 keyboards I'm buying off Craigslist in the next couple of days for ($30). I decided to go with the following, got a CM Storm Quickfire Stealth with MX Browns (TKL) which is going to be my little modding rig, and at Daniel's suggestion, I got a Matias Quiet Pro full size, to check out the Alps. In the mean time I'm going to purchase MX Clear switches and do some work on that QFR - I'm currently looking for sources for MX Clears.

On their description page: http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm

It tells me their part numbering system - so I'd be looking for:

MX1A-C1NN (for plate) or
MX1A-C1NW (for PCB)

I'm guessing the QFR has a PCB so for the majority of the keys I'm gonna need MX1A-C1NW, but there are also

C1R* - Red LED, No diode
C1G* - Green LED, No Diode
C1Y* - Yellow LED, Diode
C1D* - No LED, Diode

I'd like 3 of my keys (Escape, and 2x Controls) to have LEDs... I thought an LED was a type of Diode, it's part of the name... so I don't really understand the difference between them?

[Muirium]

7bit runs a group buy for MX switches here:
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t2760.html

Both PCB mount and plate mount clears are in stock. €0.65/switch + 4 for delivery. He has a weird system for submitting and monitoring orders, but it works. I bought greens from him some months ago. By the way: PCB mount switches differ only in the presence of those extra plastic pins. You can snip them off if you don't need them. So I'd go PCB mount if in doubt.

Diodes and LEDs are related. The switches you want have neither. No coincidence that these are the ones that 7bit sells. LEDs slot right into the hole in the pictures above. Diodes are essentially a PCB layout option for keyboard manufacturers. I've never heard of anyone here needing that version. (And you could always pop the switches open and slip in a little diode yourself if it came to that. Like LEDs, the holes are always there for the extra legs.)

One thing LEDs do require: PCB support. Adding LEDs to an existing keyboard that didn't already have them requires some cunningness.

[Vierax]

You don't have to buy PCB mount for modding (i'll explain why) but the PCB mount can be used as replacement part and with the two plastic pins added it is more strong for PCB mounting than the other type as Muirium said. On the Cherry branded keyboards (the G80 serie) and maybe some other brand, emplacements for leds or diodes are used for a jumper extending the matrix so you can't add any leds (or more sadly any diodes) under caps.

I'm surprised to hear people saying you can swap switches on a PCB mount keyboard without desoldering. They're still soldered to the PCB, surely? Anyway, plate mount switches are surely more bother to swap or mod.

you don't have to replace the whole switch, you only need to open it as you do for ergoclear or panda. You just need a pliers to remove the top and change the spring and the stem, the base doesn't need to be desoldered A plate doesn't allow the four tiny clips to move so you need to warm up your iron. I saw some interresting plates on the Alu&Steel Matteo's GB with switch holes more than squared to open switches without desoldering. http://deskthority.net/post119694.html#p119694

[IonutZ]

Actually I plan on hooking the 3 LEDs up to the scroll lock LED (since that key is pretty much useless right? lol) either that or I'll find the main power rails. So I'm gonna do more research see if I need the C1NN or the C1NW and order them from 7bit! I'm considering adding a teensy2.0 in there to run the LEDs in a multitude of different RGB settings, I think that would be pretty sweet

[Vierax]

a DIYer, sweet ! Cherry boards are easy to mod. I drastically reduced the space bar to add a left AltGr (ISO user here) and 2 thumb keys with Backspace and Escape (pictures will come when the additional MX come)

IMHO the most useless key is Pause/Break the second is Insert and Scroll Lock is third (because I ever used it in a Linux tty)

[IonutZ]

Well we used to use Pause back in the day when you turned on the computer and waited for POST to be able to see the config properly... and the "Break" part is still used today by developers, basically when you're compiling a program in an IDE (be it Visual Studio, etc.) you would use the "Break" key to kill the program and go back to the IDE. As for the insert key, I agree that thing is beyond useless, I might isolate it from the board and use that to control the Teensy, different brightness levels for the LEDs on short tap, LEDs ON/OFF on long hold!

Ordered 120 switches, 60 white and 10 of each of the others, and I'm gonna join the Phantom plate group buy (unless you guys can recommend another plate to go with the QFR) - making a solid zone weighted Cherry!!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I still use pause for pause. The only snag is that the Windows keystroke event model appears to prevent global hotkeys from working when a high integrity process is frontmost. If I press pause with Task Manager frontmost, foobar2000 cannot read that keystroke, as Task Manager's integrity status blocks any interference with keyboard events. Ditto mouse gesture control, also blocked. (I wish there was a way to promote bindings to Maximum Priority, i.e. they WILL be picked up, regardless of any frontmost process that is otherwise permitted to veto them. Then for example print screen would work inside remote sessions, and still capture my own desktop.)

I did some reading the other day, and I'm still not satisfied that I understand how laptops can make pause and break be separate keys. There's some very dark juju surrounding some of those keys.

[IonutZ]

Part of one of my projects (a software) uses a low level keylogger (not for anything malicious, just event triggering from global key captures) and I'm pretty sure I tried Pause too and it worked without any issues... but that's going beyond the Windows model. It can be done