Leopold FC660M up on EK

[Hypersphere]

I see that the Leopold FC660M is up on EK. They have blue and brown Cherries for 104 USD. The Topre switch model is 189 USD and still out of stock. Is it worth going for the Cherry version of this board, or would it be better to wait for the Topre version? In addition, what about availability of keycaps? The Cherry version uses the new "step sculpture 2" profile in PBT with lasered legends. The Topre version uses PBT with lasered legends, but I am not sure about the profile.

[Muirium]

Presumably they're the same. You can always put a different profile set of caps on a board, anyway— look at what people do with their DSA and 7bit caps around here — it's mixing and matching profiles that leads to ugly.

As for switches, you've tried Cherry but didn't like them? Gotta try 'em all if it's really just the switch that put you off before. And by then maybe the Topre will appear!

[Hypersphere]

Thanks for the insights, Mu. I pulled the trigger on this one already. I want to try the layout. I don't mind Cherry blue switches; they just seem too light after being accustomed to typing on an IBM Model M. I'd like to try Cherry greens, but it is not only a matter of actuation force, it is the force curve of a Cherry click vs a buckling spring. Anyway, at present, the FC660M from EK is available only with Cherry blues or browns. I've tried browns, and I don't like them as well as blues.

Regarding keycaps, I suppose I could replace all on the FC660M with any Cherry set except for the non-standard Win, Right Shift, and Space Bar. For the Right Shift, I could use a Left Shift from another matching set, and the 1X Win could be replaced with another first-row 1X keycap. This leaves the Space Bar, but I think it would not look bad to leave the original. However, it would be nice to have keycaps with the correct Fn layer legends on the front as well, although the Fn layer in this board is sufficiently sparse and intuitive to obviate the need for legends. (As a chemist, I like to have everything properly labeled!).

[Muirium]

I'm getting that way too. If you asked me up until a few weeks ago, I'd be all about the blanks. But then I saw the DSA Dolch replica group buy. Uh oh! Those colours! And doubleshot! I have a set of those ordered up for my custom 60%. And then I got my first IBM. An XT Model F in classic cream and black Helvetica! I am reformed.

By the way, the Dolch group buy's closed, but it's worth looking at the cap selection on offer. If you can stay within these limits, the chances are good that you can get what you want when the next tasty one shows up.


We're discussing another one at the moment, led by Matteo of DSA Retro organising fame as well as for his custom builds. I'm pushing for Helvetica! And my fingers are crossed for the eventual SA group buy after the next.

Just in case you're not intimately familiar with the Signature Plastics catalogue yet: DSA and SA are two of their key profiles. Beware: both are spherical and therefore awesome sweet. DSA is low profile, SA is tall. They're both uniform across rows, which is a bonus when you're up to stuff like this:


As for switches: I'm right with you on blues vs. browns. No contest! I bought one of the last of Mr. Interface's switch samplers when I had the chance. There's dozens of switches in there (so many Alps!) and MX brown is right there in the ones I like the least. Still way better than Cherry MY, but what isn't! For tactility, I was pleasantly surprised by MX clear: a much better switch for me than brown, and perfectly good enough to use as it is, without resorting to the ergo clear mod. I like stiff switches then, and I'm going with MX greens for my little 60%, but my fingers tell me that MX red is one of the best that Cherry makes, even so. Strange stuff when you get your hands on them yourself.

I wouldn't be in a rush to explore every variable in this field of inquiry. It's harder to glide over the cost that way!

[Hypersphere]

Mu, Thanks. We seem to be getting off-topic of the new availability of the Leo FC660M on EK, but I suppose the moderator could choose to move the thread elsewhere. In any event, I am also interested in prospects for custom or DIY keyboards and the design of layouts and legends.

Regarding layout design, where could I find good templates and/or software (Mac preferred) for drawing keyboard layouts? It would be nice to have something really easy. I have not yet taught myself how to use Adobe Illustrator.

Regarding legend fonts, it is my understanding that the present aluminum/chiclet (Scrabble tile) Apple keyboards use a font called VAG Rounded. They also use centered legends. I am not sure of the font used on the IBM Model M, but I think it is some variant of Helvetica. On the Model M, the legends on the alpha keys are in the upper left and on the number keys they are left-justified. Other keys have legends centered and shifted to the left. Some of the newer fonts used by Apple for various things include Myriad, Lucida Grande, Helvetica Neue, and Avenir, but I think that the current keyboard font is VAG Rounded. I believe these fonts are all similar to Helvetica; this should be fine, although it would be good to take a look at the others before committing to a font.

[Muirium]

As the thread starter, you can change the title at any time. (I think you access it by clicking edit on your first post.) Mods are required if it needs moved to another category. Anyway, we're pretty loose about going off topic around here. No one browses archives by subject anymore: people search! Strict topic enforsements are inhumane.

Regarding fonts: you are not alone in your interest here. I'm a Helvetica Neue fan myself, but could easily live with Futura (think Stanley Kubrick) on my keys.

Apple's generally a good compass for style (just ask Samsung or all those Ultrabook makers out there) and I love the look of the present line of keyboards, but why they use the Volkswagen font on the keys is beyond me. It's not awful (like the Das Keyboard or Poker II) but it's not great either. Here's the give away: the font Apple uses on the virtual keyboard in iOS is, what else, Helvetica! It's also centred, which is the right place for legends I think. Always was that way back in the days before computers and until the 80s. As were spherical keycaps. Oddly enough it was Apple who upset the cart and switched to cylindrical profile early on, I've heard. I'm not sure but it wouldn't surprise me if they led the charge to off centre legends too. Both mistakes, if you ask me. And one long since rectified.

[Muirium]

As for layout drawing software, I use an old version of OmniGraffle to make mine. Here's a zip of the HHKB, Filco Minila, Apple's Bluetooth keyboard and my 60% designs that I've posted lately:

OmniGraffle Keyboard Layouts.zip

(455.66 KiB) Downloaded 154 times

Anything that can draw vectors will do the trick. Once you've got the shapes made, you're basically playing keyboard Lego and it's a lot of fun! Matteo used Inkscape (open source but ugly to run on the Mac) and has a template in widely read .svg format in his original post on the project.

[bhtooefr]

Oddly enough it was Apple who upset the cart and switched to cylindrical profile early on, I've heard. I'm not sure but it wouldn't surprise me if they led the charge to off centre legends too. Both mistakes, if you ask me. And one long since rectified.

The legends were all IBM, really. The Selectric III, in 1980, was the source of the left top default position for a key legend, I believe. (That exact cylindrical key profile and legend style would later be adopted by the Model F.)

Apple actually lagged behind - their first machines with off-center legends came out 1983-01-19, the Lisa and //e.

As far as cylindrical, looks like the Apple III was Apple's first cylindrical machine. Not so sure about how key profiles were back then.

[Muirium]

That's not surprising, actually. IBM was big blue for good reason, they were everywhere. And their keyboards were by and large very nice. IBM were the ones being copied by the rest of the market, from typewriters on up.

Here's where I got the idea that Apple was behind the migration from spherical to cylindrical (boo!), a slight misremembering of the wiki:

Spherical keycaps were the de facto design for many years up to the early 80s, when the cylindrical design took over with computers such as the Apple Lisa (1983) and the Apple Macintosh (1984).

It's not as clear cut as I recalled.

Apple's been an outsized influence in technology since it began, but one area they've consistently played the follower is in keyboards. The Apple Extended Keyboard was a reaction to the IBM Enhanced, just as the Macintosh II was Apple's answer to the modular, expandable IBM PC (itself an answer to the Apple ][, so goes technology). Apple's shift from Alps switches to crappy rubber domes came in the mid nineties, as it did for most of the industry. Until the current metal keyboards came out in 2007, Apple had some of the most complained about keyboards on the market, and fully deserved it. Stain happy snow white ABS caps in a mushy keyboard with a clear enclosure straight from every obsessive's vision of hell. What were they thinking!

Apple's current metal clad keyboards are a mixture. On the one hand they look mean and have nice materials. Bluetooth is a welcome addition and works very nicely for months on a charge, I find. But scissor switches are no way to live when you're typing at your desk. There is no reason for the keyboard to be that thin and have to compromise key feel. No reason besides style.

It annoys me no end to play the typical Apple troll and complain about style versus substance. But this is one angle where the old grumble is true. Sadly, the loss of quality keyboards is not restricted to Apple by any means, and it's not something they're likely to fix, soon or ever. So it's down to us!

[Hypersphere]

Muirium, No arguments here; I agree with your points about Apple keyboards. As I think you know, I mainly use full-size IBM Model M keyboards on my Mac, Linux, and Windows workstations, and my portable is a Macbook Air (MBA). Recently, however, I have become interested in a more compact keyboard for my workstations. I started by acquiring some TKL boards to try out, and then I got interested in how far I could go with minimalism. Therefore, now I am looking at sub-TKL boards. While I do not like the idea of typing on Apple's current chiclet-key boards, I like the layout they have adopted for the MBA and their wireless keyboard. They have solved the problem of where to put dedicated arrow keys by using half-height switches and tucking them under the right-shift key. Very few functions remain for the Fn layer, which is largely highly intuitive, such as having PageUp, PageDown, etc. mapped to Fn+arrow keys. If half-height mechanical switches could be developed, this design could be incorporated into mechanical keyboards.

Mac-Layout.png (141.37 KiB) Viewed 7419 times

[Muirium]

The half height keys along the function row at the top and for the inverted T arrow cluster was a trick Apple already had in place when I got my first Mac in 2003. One of these:

It's a simple enough trick to pull in a membrane design, but a definite no-no for mechanical switches. I've never seen one that could fit in that constraint, it would have to be developed just for the purpose.

Besides, most people, who care to comment, complain about those "dinky little arrow keys". I like them too, and love that they keep the rest of the layout much more sensible by allowing a full size shift right above them, but I rate their chances at turning up in mechanical keyboards as highly as floating supermagnetic keys!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Imagine that 12" PowerBook with genuine brushed metal keys instead of painted plastic … Not sure on that ISO enter though: with the wired desktop keyboard I actually strike the empty space to its right, as the key is too narrow.

[Muirium]

How I wish it had aluminium caps! The shift from metal painted plastic to honest black / white caps on Apple's laptops / desktops since then was, at least, less deceiving. The A key on my PowerBook has crumpled paint through overuse (I still find the odd task for it), while the base plastic itself is fine.

Metal keys are something I am very keen to see turn mainstream in keyboard modding. There's a few out there, in my least liked DCS profile or similar, and for a Korean fortune. I reckon we shouldn't find it so hard, in time, to cut our own. I've a metal body lined up for them!

The skinny (half unit wide!) Apple return is probably the original reason why I turned ANSI.

[Hypersphere]

Presumably they're the same. You can always put a different profile set of caps on a board, anyway— look at what people do with their DSA and 7bit caps around here — it's mixing and matching profiles that leads to ugly.

As for switches, you've tried Cherry but didn't like them? Gotta try 'em all if it's really just the switch that put you off before. And by then maybe the Topre will appear!

Muirium, After looking at the images of the FC660M again, it appears that the keycaps on the Cherry version are distinctly unattractive. The caps on the Topre version (FC660C) look substantially better. Either way, I would want to replace the keycaps. I double-checked with EK, and the Windows key on the FC660M is 1.00x, whereas on the FC660C it is 1.25x. Why Leopold would do this is beyond me. Moreover, on both versions, the right-shift is the same size as the left-shift. I want to do a two-tone scheme, so it might require 3 sets plus an extra 1.00x Win key to do the customization. In any event, it will be easier with the Cherry version, as Topre sets are hard to find. EK is still out of stock for many of their Topre sets.

[Muirium]

The biggest single advantage that Cherry MX based keyboards have is cap selection. Topre and IBM / Unicomp buckling spring caps are niche in comparison, and for Matias switches you have to resort to harvesting Alps caps. It all comes down to numbers, most likely. Far more Cherry switches out there than Topre and the rest.

You might not need 3 sets for the 1 keyboard! Take the Dolch DSA GB I linked earlier as an example of what you might get. There's always another GB coming along. And we're getting to the good stuff!

[pasph]

The half height keys along the function row at the top and for the inverted T arrow cluster was a trick Apple already had in place when I got my first Mac in 2003. One of these:

It reminds me this

IBM 5140 PC Convertible (1986) with Alps

[Muirium]

Ooooh: Alps! In the dinky little keys, too?

There's enough room on that keyboard that the switches underneath could be full size. They're definitely more than half height, if you look at the arrow keys. I still like the differentiation in caps, though.

But big ass enter, why you of all keys, showing up here!

[Hypersphere]

Fascinating. Interesting how things come around -- back to the future, as it were. The Enter key on this one looks like a hybrid US-ISO. Interesting that they used a stepped Enter key, but a non-stepped CapsLock. It needs a bigger backspace key and buckling springs instead of Alps. It's good that they got a mechanical to work with the reduced-height keys for Fn, arrows, and F-keys. It even has an embedded NumPad. Fun to know that IBM engineers of old were starting to dream of a GH60.

[Muirium]

Laptops definitely led the way in compact layouts. Then went all anti-keyboard, oh well.

[bhtooefr]

I don't recall the PC Convertible switches being anything to write home about, though. It was more that they were mechanical because rubber dome wasn't yet durable, I think.

[Hypersphere]

I'm getting that way too. If you asked me up until a few weeks ago, I'd be all about the blanks. But then I saw the DSA Dolch replica group buy. Uh oh! Those colours! And doubleshot! I have a set of those ordered up for my custom 60%. And then I got my first IBM. An XT Model F in classic cream and black Helvetica! I am reformed.

It seems I have missed a number of great GBs. I really like the Dolch set (except I think I prefer the DCS profile to DSA), and with all the extras that were included, I think I could have done the customization I had in mind without having to purchase multiple sets. It appears that the only thing that might have been lacking is the 6.00x spacebar. It would also be nice to have a CapsLock key with the Apple Command logo, but this would have to be a separate custom keycap anyway.

I will make some inquiries of the few keycap vendors to see if I could get a special set pulled together from 2 or 3 existing sets. Otherwise, I may need to buy 3 sets to do what I want to do.

Already i need a second job to support the construction costs for my new human interface device.

[Muirium]

That's the spirit!

DSA Dolch was a great set, but watch out: the best is yet to come. If there's anyone who can run real group buy, it's Matt3o. I missed out on his epic DSA Retro (which Dolch is based on, in different colours) which even had Mac and Linux specific caps. Blast! But he's not finished yet.

If you prefer cylindrical, you do indeed have more options outside of group buys anyway. Signature Plastics is definitely worth a shot.

[002]

I don't recall the PC Convertible switches being anything to write home about, though. It was more that they were mechanical because rubber dome wasn't yet durable, I think.

I love the brown Alps switches in the PC Convertible I don't think I could type on them for any extended period of time though as they are pretty heavy. 75g IIRC? Great keycaps on it too.

Ooooh: Alps! In the dinky little keys, too?

I took some (pretty crappy) photos of the compact Alps switches for the wiki a while back: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_CM_compact
I don't mind them either - much lighter linear switch but they bottom out a bit weird from memory. It's like a cushiony, sticky landing.

[Hypersphere]

That's the spirit!

DSA Dolch was a great set, but watch out: the best is yet to come. If there's anyone who can run real group buy, it's Matt3o. I missed out on his epic DSA Retro (which Dolch is based on, in different colours) which even had Mac and Linux specific caps. Blast! But he's not finished yet.

If you prefer cylindrical, you do indeed have more options outside of group buys anyway. Signature Plastics is definitely worth a shot.

Or doubleshot.

[Muirium]

DSA Dolch is doubleshot. Pretty sure Retro was too.

(PBT dyseub is where I'd like to go next. Some pearly white high profile sphericals, please!)

[Hypersphere]

DSA Dolch is doubleshot. Pretty sure Retro was too.

(PBT dyseub is where I'd like to go next. Some pearly white high profile sphericals, please!)

I really liked the Classic Beige with Blue doubleshot set that I purchased from Originative, and I would like to give them some additional business. However, I have sent multiple e-mails and PMs with some pre-sales questions, but I have received no reply. They have very few products for sale, but the ones they have are to my liking. I would like to buy from them again, but with no response it is difficult. Does anyone have other suggestions for vendors for GMK or other quality manufacturers of keycap sets? Surely there must be more than a single dealer for such products. I realize that group buys get organized from time to time, but these incur considerable delays. Thanks for suggestions.

[Hypersphere]

Sherry got back to me late last night. His internet connection had been down again, but now it is up and running once more. His products are unique and of high quality, and I look forward to purchasing additional items from him.