A couple of Model M's I'm curious about

[E TwentyNine]

Hello All,

I joined geekhack a few days ago with some questions about Model M's I have, and it was suggested that I might find additional info over here.

The threads there concern two keyboards:

A 1992 Model M Industrial SSK that I'm simply curious to find more info on similar models of that age. I haven't seen any with the dot matrix printed label save for one from 1990 on clickykeyboards. I saw Webwit's barrage of M's here and I'm wondering what the backs of those industrial SSK's look like or if anyone else has information.

Pictures of the above here


The other is an unknown model M. The main unusual thing about this one is the chip is not soldered to the board. There is no label on it anywhere, no part number on the PCB board, and the controller chip doesn't seem to be a production chip. It's been suggested that this is a prototype industrial model M.

Pictures of this here

Any input on either of these is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[webwit]

That's an interesting industrial SSK.

Ok, here's the story. I was looking for that keyboard, and like you noticed, the only sighting was on clickykeyboards. One of my sources when I was collecting all those boards was eBay dealer Brian O'Neil, I was his main client and we talked a bit, and he went on the lookout for some boards for me, giving me first shots. So he came back with this story that he and his mother (apparently a family recycling business) picked up 6 industrial space saving keyboards at a company who wanted to get rid of old stuff. He sold me 2, and sold the rest on eBay. I had posted about it on gh, and the 4 others were sold in minutes for $200 BIN each. They were in excellent state and seemed hardly used.

Here's the back:

Spoiler:

I later sold the spare one for 510 euro:
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... -t653.html

Now yours is extra interesting because it has an old style label and is from 1992. That would make it even more valuable, because of age and because of rarity, unless it's beat up. Well probably even if it's beat up.

[webwit]

It looks like a prototype M. If that's a prototype Model M, you have something very exclusive. Carefully hand it over to the duck!

[E TwentyNine]

I'm not looking to get rid of either of these anytime soon. The SSK is my daily driver - though honestly with what it might be worth I make put it on a shelf and use one of my other standard M's (after I hack off the number pad). It is in great shape and has never seen an industrial environment.

The apparent prototype - well, I simply want to find out what it *is*. It works fine though some of the keys (G,H, space) take little more effort to register. I'd like to find an IBMer who maybe could find out if "Ferrari" is a code name for some development of keyboard firmware and what time frame it took place.

Thanks for your quick and informative reply.

[webwit]

Have you asked Unicomp about the apparent prototype? I'm not sure how many old timers are left, but it was founded by former IBM employees. Someone might be able to confirm. You can also send a PM to user clickykeyboards here, I bet he has an opinion about it.

Unfortunately I know of no (former) IBM employees active in the keyboard communities. It is said that the people who worked at those assemblies were ceremonially slayed and buried with the closed down factories, like the Egyptians used to do with slaves after they finished a pyramid. In any case they have vanished!

[E TwentyNine]

I have not asked Unicomp about it. Anyone there in particular to email? Otherwise I'll just sent a note to support.

I've sent a pm to clickykeyboards.

[webwit]

I think Jim Owens there is an original, but I'm not sure. I used to do my business with Chuck, but he retired. Probably best to send a message to support.

[E TwentyNine]

OK, fired off a note to Unicomp, will see what we get...

[wcass]

i'ld be interested in what you find.
thanks for sharing.

[fossala]

I'm 90% sure Jim Owens has gone now as well.

[clickykeyboards]

Looking first at your 1992 model M (41G3600) in 84-key space saving format with industrial gray color case.

Out of the 5000+ model M keyboards that I have at old IBM spare parts depots and warehouses, I have personally only seen one similar 1990 model M (1395682) http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cf ... /id/169994. I have been running the archive at clickykeyboards since 2004, and looking at my records from then, I had sold the 1395682 back in 2005 to a collector.

Compared to the 101-key full-size model M keyboards, few 84-key space saving keyboards were made. Previous examples of the 100 out of 5000 that I have sold can be seen here http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cf ... ntcat/9242.

In addition, the industrial-gray IBM ps/2 computers were produced in even fewer numbers http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cf ... ntcat/9241

The combination of the 84-key space-saving format and the industrial-gray case, and the fact that the keyboard appears to have all the original keys and no other damage to the exterior case, and the 20+ year old birthdate.... and assuming that you have tested that the keyboard is still working. I would say that you have a fine keyboard that any collector would love to add to their collection.

[clickykeyboards]

Regarding the second keyboard, http://etwentynine.minus.com/mBlackModelM

I would need to see some better pictures, but it does look interesting.

I'm not sure how to evaluate the other claims of the special controller chip or the painted case.

I would say that the photo of the internal keyboard controller with the date 8449, could probably mean that it is was built in 1984 in the 49th week (early December) is consistent with what I have seen with other model M keyboard controllers http://www.clickeykeyboards.com/model-m ... 1987-1999/.

In fact, I had used that previous bit of PCB date info to help another IBM collector who was scammed by someone on ebay who swapped parts, changed the IBM sticker, and put a more modern model M assembly from 1992 inside of a case that was from 1986 and tried to claim that it was a rare, one-of-a-kind variant.

Otherwise, I would need to see additional pictures and get info to see if the keyboard is still functional.

IBM keyboards are particularly fun to collect because they have "birth date certificates". While I guess it is neat to have a keyboard that is the "oldest"... I think it always important to stress that a model M keyboard that is in the original condition and still is functional with a modern PC is probably better than a non-functional keyboard, no matter how old the birth-date indicates.

[E TwentyNine]

Looking first at your 1992 model M (41G3600) in 84-key space saving format with industrial gray color case.

The SSK is fully functional.

You'll notice it has a raised silver IBM on black logo, while the 1990 one you link has flat grey on dark grey. I don't know where the various logos were used and what that means.

[E TwentyNine]

Regarding the second keyboard, http://etwentynine.minus.com/mBlackModelM

This keyboard is fully functional as well but a few keys require a hard or multiple presses to register (space, G,H). All the rivets under that part and most of the keyboard are there, but some are gone from the ends and most under the numeric keypad, but I don't know if they were ever there to begin with.

It also has stabilizer bars under both the enter and plus key on the numeric keypad which I think indicates an earlier model?

You galleries are immensely helpful, and I'm looking through them. What I don't see is a board exactly like mine - the LED connector is pins with a wire, not flat ribbon cable, and there's extra space to the right of the controller chip for placing more chips. Also that little crystal 4MHz thing.

And I did not see any socketed chips in your galleries.

If your dating of the board is correct, have you seen a controller board that old ?

If more pictures will help, just tell me what you want to see and I'll take more.

Thanks for your help.

[Ascaii]

Regarding the second keyboard, http://etwentynine.minus.com/mBlackModelM

This keyboard is fully functional as well but a few keys require a hard or multiple presses to register (space, G,H). All the rivets under that part and most of the keyboard are there, but some are gone from the ends and most under the numeric keypad, but I don't know if they were ever there to begin with.

It also has stabilizer bars under both the enter and plus key on the numeric keypad which I think indicates an earlier model?

You galleries are immensely helpful, and I'm looking through them. What I don't see is a board exactly like mine - the LED connector is pins with a wire, not flat ribbon cable, and there's extra space to the right of the controller chip for placing more chips. Also that little crystal 4MHz thing.

And I did not see any socketed chips in your galleries.

If your dating of the board is correct, have you seen a controller board that old ?

If more pictures will help, just tell me what you want to see and I'll take more.

Thanks for your help.

I have identical yellow LED wiring in some of my older Model M boards, i know my 1390133 has it for sure.

[E TwentyNine]

I have identical yellow LED wiring in some of my older Model M boards, i know my 1390133 has it for sure.

I have another white M with no label that has wiring for the LEDs, but there's a pins on the board with a connector on both ends. This one has a connector on the mainboard side, but is hardwired on the LED side, there's pics in my gallery.

Is yours like this? Do you know the manufacture date of yours?

Thanks.

[webwit]

[E TwentyNine]

Close, but:

That connector goes to the mainboard.

The white M I have (again with no label on the back) has yellow wires with that connector on each end and pins on the mainboard and LED board.

[webwit]

That case has the crudeness one expects from a prototype, like for instance seen in the arrow key area with the rounded borders.

[E TwentyNine]

I didn't notice the arrow key area difference. Part of the lip on the interior there has been cut away as well.

I've added a dozen or so more pictures to the gallery. Those details are in there.

Some other difference from others I've seen is there are no tabs to hold the bottom of the PCB in place, only the two posts by the port, and the support towers where the screws go do not have support "struts" molded into them, and one of them did break.

It's not so obvious as the picture above, but the crack in the top case is accompanied by a two corners missing on the bottom! (no damage to the internals that I can tell) I think someone may have actually beat someone to death with this thing, I've never seen a case damaged like this. But true to Model M, it still works.

Some of the new pictures are for clickykeyboards as well (of the pcb and the chips on it).

Edit: I've added more pics of the identifying marks on the keyboard assembly, the enter and plus keys, and the keyboard back plate.

Gallery is here.

[clickykeyboards]

It is a shame that the bottom case is cracked and that it appears to be painted black with fine scratches. On several vintage model M's from before 1991, I have seen black ink stamps applied to the internal keyboard case that had additional date information that could give additional clues. In addition, on the back of the metal plate that forms the internal keyboard base, IBM would often put additional stickers with PT No. and initals of the actual people who assembled the keyboard from parts.

http://www.clickeykeyboards.com/model-m ... m-1390120/

I had a look through my extensive library of model M's and I found a similar very early 1390120 that has an internal keyboard PCB controller with the date 85-11 (1985, 11th week) (i.e., middle of March 1985)

Looking at the pictures of my keyboard, it has many of the same characteristics and part numbers on the chips, as your keyboard. My chip has the same "athletic tape" label, but with 1389988 printed on it. On your soldered chip, it has what looks to be the same numbers

188662
A11367
3J XM
81192L

You definitely have a very nice specimen of a keyboard that has an IBM controller from 1984, the yellow wires and metal stablizer bars also appear to be common with later IBM 1391401 and 1390131 designs from other keyboards that I have seen from 1985-1988.. There appear to be other minor variations of how the mold of bottom keyboard case compares to other model M cases.

Of course, I would definitely certify with total confidence that you have a vintage IBM model M specimen with a keyboard controller dated back to 1984 (29 years old).. however, without additional physical details or marks on the keyboard case or other supporting documentation as to history of where the keyboard came from, I wouldn't go as far as labelling it "prototype industrial model M".

I have always believed in trying to be a conservator and archivist of these vintage IBM keyboards. Others need to appreciate that once upon a time in America at the end of the 20th century, quality electronics were designed and built by hand by the corporation known as International Business Machines and were proudly "Made in USA".

[webwit]

Looking at that arrow key area and the marks on the case, it looks like someone attacked a regular case with an instrument. So maybe someone in IBM took a regular 1984 keyboard and modded it to connect to some special machinery which required other logic in the board. If it was a (true) prototype, it wouldn't have the part numbers and other marks on the case. It might be some sort of Frankenboard.

[snoopy]

@E29: At geekhack you mentioned that the board came from a friend at IBM. Couldn't you ask him for some more details?

[E TwentyNine]

Took me a while to type this reply....every time I got to something I went back to look at the keyboard to check a detail.

Friend and the IBM location are long gone. I can say it came from IBM Boca Raton in the early/mid 90's and has been in my storage since then. Boca Raton happens to be the location where IBM did work on industrial software and hardware at the time (and of course the birthplace of the PC).

Note I hadn't mentioned this when the person at geekhack said he thought it was a prototype industrial M.

Regarding whether it *is* a prototype - I do know the way hardware is created that the physical pieces may be further along in the process long before the electronics and software/firmware inside are finalized. So a case which is missing some of the details of the later cases (like the PCB bottom clip) could be an early case. Note the part # is the only ID on it, the other M I currently have open has a different part number as well as "IBM" stamped in it. I should haven take pictures of the internals of my other M's, I have nothing to compare these with. May need to go back and open them.

The case has some more quirks compared to my other M cases - has no supporting pieces between the key cutouts, the mounting hole on the top left of the keyboard assembly above the Esc key is round, not oval - the keyboard will not fit into my 1990 case. Even the 1985 clicky linked to has an oval hole at the top left. I'm not familiar enough with the early M's to know what that means.

My questions don't mainly revolve around the outside physical pieces anyway - the case and the keyboard assembly may not be "prototype" stage pieces, just early designs of that hardware. Either way they look like early hardware.

But I'm certain the chip and PCB are not production pieces.

The PCB is longer than any I've seen including any clickykeyboard's gallery and has the extra pads on it for mounting more chips/parts - why would this be? Were they planning on adding something? Was there another model of IBM keyboard that had a PCB this size and format?

Apart from the 1984 date code clicky decoded, and the labels for placing the pieces, there's no writing on the board. No "FRONT", "BACK", no part number, nothing.

Add in the socketed chip with the "Ferrari 9/3" written on it, all point to this being at least a development platform for firmware and/or electronics, if not the whole keyboard itself.

But development for what is the question.

[daedalus]

Do the keys use single piece keycaps, or two piece ones? In particular, is the PrtScr/* key a two piece or one piece keycap? The PrtScr/* key is usually from the AT Model F, so either this predated the correct Model M key, or the original key was lost and replaced by someone who stole a key from a Model F.

[E TwentyNine]

All the single size keys are two piece except for: PrtSc/*, F6, 3, 0, ], F. So looks like just a random assortment of keys that were replaced.

All the 1.5 width keys - Tab, Ctrl (x2), Alt (x)2, \ - are all one piece.

[E TwentyNine]

UPDATE: I'm still doing research on this, but I heard back from Unicomp, this is what I know at the moment...

Details from Unicomp:

First, Jim Owens retired a year ago. The person I emailed did not give his name, only said he was an old IBMer.

"Ferrari" was an IBM internal family name for Model M keyboards in the 80's.

This mainboard was not known to be used with that LED board in production M models.


My thoughts at the moment:

I haven't seen that exact LED board or mainboard anywhere else. The mainboard appears to be a modified terminal keyboard board, but it's partially depopulated (or never was fully populated).

I haven't seen another socketed controller board in an M anywhere.

I haven't seen another M with a 1984 controller board. This is the earliest one I've seen, would like to know if anyone has one with an earlier date.

It's definitely something early, and given that it has an internal family name written on the chip I suspect it's something unique.

I'm waiting for a reply from an old IBMer I haven't talked to in ages, not sure if he knows anything, but he worked in the industrial software/hardware division.

Any corrections to any of the above information is welcome.

[Soarer]

Interesting findings! My hunch would be that it's from a late beta testing phase, so there were probably quite a few made (well, dozens maybe), for testing robustness, firmware and manufacturability. Clearly the case was strengthened afterwards. It would be interesting to compare that firmware with the earliest production firmware we can find.

Most of all though, my curiosity flies off at a tangent... what was the internal name for Model Fs - Bentley? Farina?

[Spotty1125]

I have not asked Unicomp about it. Anyone there in particular to email? Otherwise I'll just sent a note to support.

I've sent a pm to clickykeyboards.

I've used Unicomp support frequently before, and their support is absolutely awesome.
No one in particular, the whole support team is awesome.